Experiences of Recreational hunting in national parks?

[wayno]

in NZ hikers have to share the majority of the area of national parks with a lot of hunters, you get the odd issue, it's usually where hunters are hunting to close to each other off track and one shoots another. usually the hikers dont have problems, i've been out during the roar in an area thick with deer and hunters, I stuck to the track, heard a few rifle shots , saw a lot of hunters, didnt have a problem.
mind you our national parks are a fair size, i'im not familiar with teh size of he parks you are referring to, so theres a fair bit of room to move around, even os na lot of hunters dont go that far off the tracks to hunt.
the nz law is that guns being transported or around the home have to have a trigger lock at the least on them or be locked in a box or rack
bolts are supposed to be removed before getting to a hut, i think thats only a courtesy rule though, not all hunters adhere to the rule.

[Moondog55]

A real sambar hunter fires few shots at sambar deer in a year.....often only 2 or 3....sometimes none at all. The attraction for us isn't in the shooting....but the hunting of an elusive and intelligent animal....and doing it in a challenging and ruggedly attractive envoironment like the ANP.

Well, there goes the feral animal mitigation claim. Which, as any rational well-informed person already knew, had as much reality as the fire mitigation claim for cattle grazing in the ANP.

You totally miss the point there.
In National Parks we are hunting a designated game species, you can get into a lot of trouble while doing so if you happen to shoot a feral animal, those are :"Protected ": inside the national park boundaries, it is stupid but those are the rules

[sambar358]

NNW....to address your "feral animal mitigation" comment. Last year DSE conducted a phone survey of licenced deer hunters in Victoria asking about sambar harvest numbers for 2010 and as a result of that survey it was estimated that in 2010 there were between 28,000 and 34,000 sambar shot in Victoria ! Now in anyones language that's a fair pile of deer and of course these would have been taken in state forests, private land and many I'm sure from the ANP. So...in the absence of any more efficient alternative....hunters are certainly having a signifcant impact on Victorias sambar deer numbers and as the numbers of licenced deer hunters increase (currently around 25000 in Victoria) so will the annual sambar harvest numbers increase.

DSE & PV (albeit somewhat reluctantly) do recognise that recreational deer hunting at the moment is the only viable means of managing Victorias sambar deer population....with alternatives such as wide-spread 1080 poisoning discussed and rightly condemned for heavy bi-kill outcomes, aerial shooting discounted due to high costs and effectiveness factors in heavy bush and biological control measures posing far too much rist to our domestic livestock industry there seems to be but one alternative....hunting ! At the moment sambar deer have few effective predators apart from man and while wild dogs may impact on sambar calves to some degree once a sambar reaches maturity a 200kg sambar hind or a 300+kg sambar stag has little to fear in the bush.

Some years ago a I accompanied a friend by the name of Doug Stevenson (who was a DSE Regional manager & keen sambar hunter) into the mountains to do a presentation on sambar deer hunting the the Alpine National Park to a large gathering of National Parks staff from Qld, NSW, Vic and SA who were all on a whistle-stop tour of the eastern state Parks. We met the 50+ strong group in the Wonnangatta Valley near the old homestead site in the heart of sambar country and an icon area within the ANP. Before dinner we were both engaged in some pretty robust informal discussion with many of the interstate Park staffers who had the perception that firearms and National Parks were hardly a compatible combination. However after dinner when Doug got into his talk and by the tone of the questions that he was fielding it was clear that most of the staffers were starting to see the bigger picture and at least start to accept that in the ANP hunters and other users could co-exist. One young lass from the Kosi Park was quite vocal and didn't agree at all asking Doug if some alternative could be found to control the sambar population that didn't involve hunters. Doug considered this question for a while and everyone awaited his response which went something like this " Well yes young lady I guess we could always introduce the natural predator of the sambar deer from their country of origin....India" She seized on this pretty quickly sensing a victory then asked "That sounds great Doug....what would they be ?" Doug paused as if to carefully consider his answer but was in reality only working the audience who were on the edges of their seats eager to hear his reply "Oh THE TIGER of course....they should add a bit of excitement to a night in the bush !" Some gasped, others laughed nervously and a few got the full thrust of his response....and I'll leave anyone who reads this to ponder on what that may have been. Cheers

sambar358

[Joel]

That's a great story sambar. I would have loved to have been at that meeting
I don't know how sambar are regulated on the mainland, but I'm guessing it is managed as a desirable introduced species, or low priority pest species like trout and fallow deer in Tasmania. I'm not at all opposed to hunting and in a perfect world we could hunt in National Parks and have a really good impact on the feral species that we want to eradicate.

[Greenie]

I want to thank everyone that has contributed to this topic so far. It is good to hear from not only the walkers but also the hunters also.

In the parks that hunting occurs in, what kind of signage is there? How easy would it be for me to walk into an area a not realise that hunting is taking place?

If say for example the Sambar were eradicated in Victoria, would there be another species for the 25000 hunters? Maybe game parks could be setup for them?

[Pteropus]

... harvest numbers for 2010 and as a result of that survey it was estimated that in 2010 there were between 28,000 and 34,000 sambar shot in Victoria !

That is a lot of deer and suggests a much larger population. I am curious, are the fawns hunted too or just adults?

...If say for example the Sambar were eradicated in Victoria, would there be another species for the 25000 hunters? Maybe game parks could be setup for them?

Unfortunately game parks would most likely lead to re-releasing animals into the wild because fences fail to hold.

[sambar358]

Joel....on your question. Sambar are not managed as such really....we as hunters are managed to a degree & "real" game management of the animal seems still in the "too hard" basket unfortunately. Sambar are classed as "Game" and therefore are subject to some regulations : a Game Licence endorsed for Deer, a minimum calibre requirement of 270, can only be hunted in the daylight so no spotlighting and there are some additional compliance requirements for those who hunt them with scent trailing hounds...the hound test and a season for hound hunting. There is a season for sambar stalking in the ANP from Feb 15 - Dec 15 so "no hunting" over the high usage periods thru the summer. But on public land outside the Parks....sambar deer can 356 days a year and no bag limit as long as the other licence and calibre compliance requirements are met.

As Moondog55 has correctly pointed-out...in the ANP sambar deer are the only species permitted to be shot by licenced deer hunters and as sambar are currently classed as "Game" and are not "Feral animals" in the eyes of the regulators there is NO feral animal hunting of non-sambar species permitted in our NP's at all. Rabbits, feral cats, goats, wild pigs and wild dogs are not to be shot if encountered by a deer hunter so by and large these species are pretty-well left to breed relatively unchecked apart from some area-specific control efforts on occasions by DSE or PV staff. I believe that NSW has a different slant on the managed hunting of their non-native animals with all being regarded as "Feral" including the deer so hunter access to initially areas of State Forest and now it seems some parts of some National Parks would possibly be based on a broader range of feral animal hunting rather than deer-specific as it is in Victorian national Parks. I don't see that as a bad thing if these animals are damaging the environment. competiting with native animals and in need of some level of population control. Like it or not....a skilled hunter on foot with a high powered rifle is in reality the most effective form of managing feral animals.

Greenie & others : this has been an interesting thread and a bit of information sharing can go a long way towards giving people a more balanced view of what for some is quite a controversial and likely confronting subject. To follow-up on your questions :

Unfortunately a lot of the signage in the ANP is quite misleading in regard to deer hunting and often you'll see a sign proclaiming "NO DOGS CATS & FIREARMS at a trail head or beside one of the main roads into the ANP....I'm sure many have seen these with their little graphics showing a cat, dog & rifle with nice red lines thru them !!! So despite lots of meaningful discussion between deer hunting orgs and the National Parks these misleading signs still remain which obviously gives people the wrong impression & causes them to treat an ecounter with a hunter in a permitted area as a meeting with someone acting illegally...which they are not. What the deer hunting orgs are asking for is some form of low-level advisory signage....like an information board display at prominant areas within the ANP that give the general public a true and accurate representation of the sambar deer and hunting in those areas. We certainly don't want "DANGER : DEER HUNTING IN THIS AREA" type signage....just something that advises the public that deer hunting is an appoved activity in that particular location at certain times of the year. To this stage Parks Vic has been reluctant to accept this proposal despite the deer hunting orgs offering to pay for everything, put them up and maintain them. We would also like to see some level of recognition given to deer hunting in Parks Vic literature and on the PV website....generally there is nothing on either of these mediums that are readily accessed by the public....we may be the "black sheep" of the family in the eyes of PV...but like it or not we are still in that family !

On the future of the sambar : they are here to stay....forever ! Despite signficant hunting pressure and increasing every year, massive bushfires that should have wiped-out countless 1000's of them they continue to thrive. They are very adaptive and will do well from the coastal T-tree swamps to the highest mountains. As a non-specific browser they will eat virtually any plant species and tend not to condentrate on any one type....they are non-selective pruners of the forest. Sambar are in every catchment from the outer suburbs of Melbourne to as far north as Canberra....from the coast to the Murray and on a relentless march north.....while I won't see it they will get to the end of the Great Dividing Range eventually...of that I have not doubt what-so-ever ! If 28-34000 were shot in 2010 as the DSE survey indicated then the true population numbers then would be massive.....some 100's of thousands as going by international standards a relatively low percentage (less than 20%) of a "herd" of a large game animal is generally harvested by hunters.

Having said all that though I feel that they have had little real impact on the bush environment....they are generally found singly or in small groups of 2 or 3 so they don't herd like NZ's destructive red deer....they are a timid and secretive deer for such a large animal and unless you are looking for them or their sign you wouldn't know that they were there. Hunting aside...I think the sambar add a great deal to the Australian bush and any walker I've met who has had a close-range sambar encounter was very impressed with what they saw. So I can't see "Game Parks" for sambar kicking off anytime soon....there will always be sambar....and plenty of them & it's about time we adopted them (like most have with the trout) as a new addition to our list of diverse animals. And while on Game Parks...NSW outlawed hunting in Game Parks some years ago....I don't know of any in Victoria and shooting a deer in a 5 acre pen isn't hunting anyway and would not appeal to those wanting a total hunting experience. As I said in an earlier post, there is much more to deer hunting that firing the shot and often that spoils what otherwise has been a nice walk in the bush as now you've got a couple of hundred kg's of sambar to lug out of the bush !

Most hunters would take a cross-section of sambar and often the 1st sambar encountered is shot....so in a year with 8 sambar taken (my average) several would be juveniles under 12 months, a couple of immature 2-3 year old stags, several mature hinds and if I'm lucky a mature stag of 8 years plus. This would be pretty typical for an experienced and competent sambar hunter who (like me) hunts for 50 or more days a year. Cheers

sambar358

[Pteropus]

...Having said all that though I feel that they have had little real impact on the bush environment....they are generally found singly or in small groups of 2 or 3 so they don't herd like NZ's destructive red deer....they are a timid and secretive deer for such a large animal and unless you are looking for them or their sign you wouldn't know that they were there...

Deer are recognised as a ‘Threatening Process’ by the Victorian Government and NSW Government

After conducting a little online research into sambar deer and hunting in Victoria, I came across this article from the AGE.
I find this most interesting:

...Under the Wildlife Act, sambar can be stalked by licensed game hunters, but culled only if they pose a threat to agriculture, conservation or safety.
As a result, they have become an international tourist attraction, drawing game hunters to the Victorian bush as one of the last areas where the animals can be tracked in the wild.
Those campaigning to return sambar to full protected game status are the state's main hunting groups: the Australian Deer Association, Sporting Shooters' Association of Australia and Field and Game Victoria.
The Australian Deer Association wants the "threatening process" listing dropped and numbers managed by recreational shooting and selected culling by Parks Victoria...

The Australian Deer Association state:

Deer in Australia are currently not managed and this means too many deer in some areas and not enough deer in others. Having too many deer increases the risk of deer being listed as vermin. This can have long-term implications such as, if deer are no longer classified as game, losing an important reason to own a centre-fire rifle.
Hunters have the choice of assisting in maintaining the good health of a deer herd and increasing trophy potential by taking more female deer than males. This is Quality Deer Management (QDM). Property Based Game Management (PBGM) is the best way to control and manage deer populations on private land...

And this is exactly why recreational hunting is NOT an effective means of controlling feral animals, as has been pointed out in the NSW hunting in NPs thread, because hunters are more interested in maintaining game populations, not controlling or eradicating them.

I do not believe that anyone really believes that they are trying to control a feral species by recreational hunting. For example, the Victorian State Government is charging up to $234.60 for a hunting licence, then people like this mob are in on the act, making more money. Sure, enjoy hunting if that is your thing, but don’t pretend that recreational hunting makes a difference in controlling feral species.

If the millions made in revenue from hunting was then put into eradication of the feral species, then maybe I would be less cynical of the argument that recreational hunting is actually making a difference to control these feral deer...and deer are only part of the feral species problem.

[sambar358]

Pteropus : I do not deny that some people see sambar as a potential threat to the environment and the Victorian Government listed sambar as a "Threatening Process" several years ago...a process as you've pointed out that was also disputed by various hunting organizations (on the grounds of a lack of actual scientific evidence and numerous flaws in the process). However the mere listing of sambar does not make them go away....and nor will removing their "Game" status and declaring them feral.

What would you suggest as a more effective means of control for our sambar populatuion ? Mass 1080 poison a-la the NZ model (a practice internationally condemned), helicopter gunships, developing and releasing a (hopefully) sambar-specific biological agent ? It's fine for many to moan about the preceived problem but to this date no one can come up with a viable solution. As you've pointed-out deer hunters pay a heavy price for a Game Licence $234.60 for 3 years...multiply that my 25,000 and what do you get....a fair bit of money....and how much of that is ploughed back into on-gorund deer management ? NONE ! And that's not the fault of the hunters or their AHO's.....this money gets absorbed into consolidated revenue and ends up who knows where.....it never has and never will be spent on "feral animal control"...as it is a "Game Licence" fee...game or not feral...in the eyes of the Government anyway. PV DSE and the government do not have the real interest, resources or ability to embrace the control of sambar deer....just like they also have failed to address basic management issues on the control of weed infestations, rabbits, foxes, feral cats, wild pigs & goats and feral horses in their Parks....there are far more issues in Parks regarding control of "undesirable species" than just sambar deer although the sambar seem to be the popular whipping post these days.

So then we get back to hunting I guess....every sambar shot by a hunter is one more than those being killed by PV or other government agencies ATM. Sambar do not stand around waiting to be shot like feral goats or the NZ red deer of the tussock tops. The bottom line is that they are a difficult animal to hunt, dwell in the bush and certain skills are required which take time to deveop before you begin to have some success. Hunting sambar is just not a matter of taking a rifle and wandering around in the bush shooting every one you see....PV and DSE etc recognise this and this is why they have no interest in taking-on the task of sambar deer control in Parks. Hunting organizations have for years promoted the ethic of taking more sambar females as a means to regulate deer numbers and this is an internationally recognised strategy that over time has an effect on population dynamics and certainly more hunters are embracing this practice by harvesting more sambar hinds rather than targeting solely male deer.

So we get back to square one again.....deer hunting as a means (and in your view not a very effective means) of controlling sambar deer.....but no real other option. While it seems OK to knock the effectiveness of hunting and the intent of hunters....simply saying that they should be declared feral or having them listed as a Threatening Process will not make them go away....what viable, workable & effective alternatives would you suggest ? I look forward to your reply. Cheers

sambar358

[wayno]

1080 is used in new zealand by DOC, they consider it effective in controlling possum. depends what bait you use. here its carrots died green. it's considered there is minimal effect on non targeted species

http://www.doc.govt.nz/conservation/threats-and-impacts/animal-pests/methods-of-control/1080-poison-for-pest-control/

[sambar358]

Wayno....DOC in NZ seem to regard 1080 poison as the best thing since sliced bread and certainly it's widespread use in your forests has had some impact on the numbers of possums and in some cases deer numbers. However as you'd know NZ is a bit different compared to Oz in that you have very few native animals in your bush: only two species of native bats and not too many bird species as well. So bi-kill potential is largely not an issue with wide-spread 1080 poison usage in NZ....but it'd be quite different here as we have a diverse range of small native herbivores and carnivors as well as many bird species that could potentially be impacted upon with primary or secondary bi-kill issues related to wide-spread 1080 poison laid for sambar deer. Non-target herbivores (kangaroos, wallabies, possums, native mice, wombats etc) would be vulnerable to taking baits as would some bird species....then the potential for a secondary kill of small carnivors like Quolls & Bandicoots is possible plus of course the large raptors like the Wedgetailed Eagle, various hawks & falcons and the owls. It is very common to see evidence of birds feeding on deer carcasses and all these would be potentially under signifcant threat should they feed on a deer carcass or indeed any animal/bird killed by 1080 poison.

Recently the Victorian government banned the proposed large-scale aerial 1080 baiting program planned for wild dog control in the mountains including some Parks on the grounds of a significant level of public concern for the bi-kill factor on non-target species. While it may be an effective control method in New Zealand your lack of non-target species makes it less of a threatening agent.....things are quite different here and having hunted in your quiet largely native bird & animal free forests quite often I much prefer to walk in our bush full of a diverse range of birds and animals....including the sambar. Cheers

sambar358

[Moondog55]

The pine plantations in Victoria used green 1080 carrots a while ago to control rabbits and wallabies ( YES Wallabies) and the side effects of widespread poison use on the bird population was very high. At the moment they are using 1080 and another poison in the Alpine Parks at and around Mt Hotham and Falls Creek to control hares and rabbits and anecdotally the Currawong population has crashed with no apparent decline in fox and cat numbers. Feral cat populations in these areas is huge as are the feral cats in question.

[wayno]

yeah 1080 is still pretty contentious in nz. I think in DOC's case it's by far the most cost effective way of dealing with possums, regardless of what else it kills. kea will take 1080 bait and is was a problem on one of the west coast glaciers where several keas died. but most of our birds are too small to be able to take the bait used. and yeah there isnt anywhere near the amount of other non pest species to take the bait....

[Pteropus]

Hi sambar358

... I do not deny that some people see sambar as a potential threat to the environment and the Victorian Government listed sambar as a "Threatening Process" several years ago...a process as you've pointed out that was also disputed by various hunting organizations (on the grounds of a lack of actual scientific evidence and numerous flaws in the process). However the mere listing of sambar does not make them go away....and nor will removing their "Game" status and declaring them feral.

I think we both agree that the government and hunting groups have no interest in seeing deer removed then? That is my main problem with using the argument that recreational hunting in National Parks is good for the environment. The actual issue of whether hunting in NPs is right or wrong is arbitrary. But as far as using, or claiming recreational hunting controls feral species is fantasy in my book. In fact, a paper by Moriarty (2004) shows that most deer herds in Australia originate from farm escapees/releases (35%) or people deliberately translocating herds for the express purpose of hunting (58%). Just 7% of herds originate from the original releases in Australia by acclimatisation societies (pm me if anyone would like a copy of this paper -> Moriarty, A. (2004) The liberation, distribution, abundance and management of wild deer in Australia. Wildlife Research, 31, 291-299)

For a group such as hunting lobbies to say that there is “a lack of evidence” or the “process is flawed” is easy to do when your vested interests are at stake and you have the numbers behind you to make a bit of noise. But it is clear that people with vested hunting interests have maintained, and indeed introduced, many of these deer herds. And as you have pointed out, the Government doesn’t have the interest, resources or ability to embrace control of sambar deer or other feral species (animals and plants), because it is resource and money intensive, and would perhaps prevent another source of income.

So what is the solution? Other than throwing money at the issue and hiring professional hunters, I honestly don’t know. As you point out, baiting is not a very effective control of feral species and is indiscriminate, killing native species too. I don’t like baiting. But I think a concentrated effort using professional hunters might be more effective than the piece meal hunting here and there of deer etc. There is a saying, ‘he who defends everywhere, defends nowhere’ (Sun Tzu maybe?) which basically means, if you spread your forces thin and do not concentrate them, you will be defeated in battle. This sort of mentality might be applied to eradication of pests such as deer. If the State and Federal Governments were willing to pay for eradication, I am sure it could be done.

But would the hunting groups want that? Would even a fraction of 25 000 hunters turn up and volunteer their time to eradicate some herds across National Parks, if the Victorian Government asked them? People do turn up to volunteer their time to attempt to remove weeds from the bush, but no one has a vested interest in keeping weed populations up...

Anyhow, as I have stated, recreational hunting is part of the problem in maintaining feral populations and removing a handful of animals each week for an area does nothing to actually control their numbers. I am not against the act of hunting (I have eaten freshly killed roo for example) but I don’t think that recreational hunting belongs in an area that is set aside for conservation AND I don’t believe it has anything to do with the control of feral species...

Cheers
Andrew

[sambar358]

Fair enough Andrew....you put forward some interesting perspectives on this and people can make up their own minds I guess. We will just have to agree to disagee.

I have read Moriarty's paper which mainly addresses more recent establishments of deer in various areas of NSW....red and fallow deer in particular but not sambar. Certainly escapees from deer farms, animals released by deer farmers due to a collapse in the deer farming industry and random releases by individuals or small groups of hunters would account for most of these animals....so I take your point there. To the best of my knowledge in Victoria all our sambar have stemmed from the original Acclimitisation Society releases made over 150 years ago in areas close to Melbourne and over time these animals have bred-up and populated all the major catcments throughout the GDR. I am quite confident in my views that our wild sambar have not been supplimented by farm stock & they have got to where they are on their own as they are a very hardy and adaptive species and they are not described as "the dominant transplant" for no reason. My view is that the sambar are here to stay and no efforts by individuals or governments will ever erradicate them....we should recognise this and plan long term to best manage their numbers in such a way that any potential impact by them on the environment in minimal.

Like you...I have no answer to what some see as the "sambar problem"....they inhabit some pretty wild and untracked country that has little or no access so any sort of control measures will be severely restricted by the terrain and the difficult nature of the bush. Sambar are a very pressure-sensitive animal and respond quickly to human presence generally going nocturnal or hunkering down in the heavy bush making them hard to hunt so large-scale "search & destroy missions" would not be very successful I'd think. The NZ model with their red deer culling of the 60's & 70's is often discussed as a potential tactic with sambar but where-as the NZ cullers were hunting a high-number herding animal above the bushline and shooting 100's a day in some cases with sambar we have a non-herding species that usually occurs singly prefering heavy forest....a much more difficult animal to hunt. NZ also used the helicopter very effectively on their massive red deer numbers but again this was above the bushline with literally 100's of animals in these areas at the time. In my view we have a totally different situation with sambar in Australia and NZ models of control really don't suit.

I doubt if the Government will embrace the "professional hunter concept" in the true sense as again to use the NZ situation their government actually employed, trained and systematically deployed many 100's of hunters into their remote red deer forests well supported by a hut system, fixed-wing or helicopter access and ample provisions and it over time proved quite successful reducing the red deer numbers to a more manageable level....but certainly not erradication...there are plenty of red deer still in NZ. The vibes that deer hunting orgs. are getting from hunting agencies is that this sort of effort is not on their radar in regards to sambar population control. And if we were going to go down the "professional cullers" road where would we get the 100's of competent hunters from, who would pay them, how would they be resourced and supported and would it all make any difference anyway ? Unlike the NZ red deer sambar are not a herding animal and they occur singly or in small family groups of maybe 2-5 animals....the most that I have ever seen together is 8 and that is in 40 years of sambar hunting. So sambar are not susceptible to high-number bomb ups a-la the NZ culler days....some days I see 4 or 5 in good country if I do my bit and pay attention to the wind & on other days none at all....and I regard myself as a very competent and successful sambar hunter. So they are not push-overs and simply saturating a bit of country with a whole lot of blokes with rifles will not be effective on sambar of that I am quite sure. So a challenging "problem" if indeed they are such.

With regard to the sambar range picture this : start at the bush fringes on the edges of Melbourne around Croydon (30 min from the CBD) and include ALL the bush (farm fringe,foot hills and mountains) north to the Murray and east to at least Canberra. Once at the Gippsland Lakes (where I live) also include all the coastal areas south of the Princes Highway to at least Merimbula on the NSW south coast. Sambar would inhabit every catchment in that area from sea level to 1500m. In some their numbers would be low and in others quite high but which-ever way you look at it that's a lot of country that they inhabit and a whole lot of sambar deer....and despite DSE's "arguable" figures of an annual hunter take of 28000 - 34000 sambar in 2010 they continue to flourish.

You seem keen to blame recreational hunters for the presence of deer in the bush....that may be true in more recent times in some parts in NSW with red & fallow deer according to Moriarty and his study but it is not a valid argument for sambar in Victoria. As I said earlier they are all the result of government sanctioned Acclimatisation Society releases going back as far as 1860 ! Since around 1900 sambar have been subject to various forms of intensive hunting which has failed to impact to any degree on their numbers and their icreasing range....so they've been here for quite a while and in my view they'll be here for a whole lot longer. While I certainly agree that we need to manage their numbers to at least have some impact on them essentially they are here to stay and we might as well accept that and move on.

Hunting is doing it's bit and if the DSE Survey numbers are anywhere near correct then a 28-34000 annual sambar harvest by recreational deer hunters is nothing to be scoffed at and my view of this is that well into the future the Government will continue to rely totally on the recreational deer hunting effort for sambar on public land and they themselves will do very little if anything about them at all. If they were serious about formulating effective control strategies then the declaration of sambar as a Threatening Process several years ago should have been the catalist that started the ball rolling & while there have been several talk-fests since then but typically NO ACTION ! So things changeth not.

Thanks for your comments Andrew....hopefully people who read them and mine can get a better idea of the bigger picture and make up their own mind on the subject. Maybe we'll meet some day on a trail somewhere in the mountains....I'll be the big bloke in camo with the blaze orange hat and the rifle. Cheers

sambar358

[Moondog55]

I wish I had your range of experience Sambar 538, and one day soon I will get my first beast. my niggle with the current situation is the fact that I cannot contribute to the control of species that really are threat to our native wildlife.
I would like to be able to legally carry a NON-SAMBAR calibre, say a .22 rimfire and spend some of my twilight hours ( when stalking is becoming illegal ) watching for cats or foxes and perhaps even the odd bunny for the pot. As it now stands I believe it is still illegal to be in possession of any non-sambar calibre while hunting in the NP.

[Pteropus]

Hi sambar358

Yes, I agree the issue of feral control is a difficult one and there is no magic bullet (pun intended ). I just don't think that recreational hunting will make a dent in feral species populations.

You seem keen to blame recreational hunters for the presence of deer in the bush....

It is not so much that I blame recreational hunters for the presence of deer, or other feral species, in the bush, but there are numerous instances of people introducing animals to an area for the express purpose of hunting them. This is one of the reasons for which the acclimatisation societies were set up for. And when a species is considered useful (for food, revenue, recreation etc), then it is a resource worth saving. In Africa for example, one of the arguments for allowing big game hunting of species such as elephants in places like Zimbabwe is because rich westerners will pay a fortune to hunt them and the government there will earn more money from protecting a big bull elephant from poachers, which protects the herd. That is the theory anyhow.

Here in Australia, farmers used to get hunters in to hunt feral goats because they competed with their livestock and degrade their land. Apparently the hunters would always leave a few breeding pairs because then they could come back to 'help' the farmer out again in the future. Now many farmers are actively stocking goats because they can make money out of them. Goat meat is the most eaten meat on Earth apparently. Increasing numbers of goats is going to be a bigger disaster than deer.

But from what I have read and heard, it appears that hunting groups will get vocal and push to protect their game species if the said species is increasing to the point that they are out of control, leading to calls for widespread culls, which is the exact impression I got from the Australian Deer Association website. Or if hunters lose access to areas for hunting, or they want access to previously denied areas, then there is a lot of lobbying etc. Which is exactly what happened in NSW with that decision by their State Government.

...Moriarty and his study but it is not a valid argument for sambar in Victoria. As I said earlier they are all the result of government sanctioned Acclimatisation Society releases going back as far as 1860 !

Moriarty's paper shows results for Victoria (121 surveys) and maps the sambar population, including the acclimatisation herds, farm releases and translocations.

Thanks for your comments Andrew....hopefully people who read them and mine can get a better idea of the bigger picture and make up their own mind on the subject

Yes, this is a bigger picture issue and really all we can do is share our opinions. There is really no right or wrong in this topic (in my opinion), I just don't think recreational hunting should occur in NPs, that all. I am less worried about the safety aspect of people with guns (people can be dangerous without guns if they want) than I am concerned for the potential damage that can be done to the environment. And I don't imagine that you go around shooting at everything that moves but I have met people with that mentality.

Maybe we'll meet some day on a trail somewhere in the mountains....I'll be the big bloke in camo with the blaze orange hat and the rifle

If only I could find the time to get down that way! One day...

Cheers
Andrew

[ULWalkingPhil]

I have not read any of the posts here, but I hope hunting will not be allowed in National Parks, there's enough danger out there now for us hikers, let alone worrying about someone with a gun.

[Moondog55]

Sometimes you really do have to read the entire thread.

Hunting already is allowed in NP in Victoria, but as discussed only in certain areas at the moment and these are areas which are deer hunting areas of long standing.

The only danger to walkers and hikers in this country are self inflicted due to ignorance or stupidity.
Weather is only bad and dangerous if not equipped for the conditions. Worried about your car getting stolen or trashed at the start point, that is my biggest fear!

[sambar358]

Some valid comments again Andrew....and I do hope that interested people take the time to read this thread....and my apologies for the length of some of my responses as I like many other passionate sambar hunters do have a genuine interest not only in the deer but also the environment as a whole.

Total eradication of any feral species is an unrealistic expectation....the NZ experience with their red deer culling programs of the 50's 60's & 70's then the mass helicopter-based venison recovery exercises which reduced but in no shape or form eliminated the red deer clearly demonstrate this. Sambar control measures to that degree will never be undertaken in this country IMO. So it'd virtually impossible to "get the last one" of any animal pig, goat, deer or whatever...even at a small scale level such as on some private land. There will always be some animals that manage to evade the best efforts of a hunter or government agent....hence my belief that there will always be issues with feral animal control despite the resources that are devoted to this in the short and longer term.

One final point : culling and hunting. These are quite different activities and probably need some defining. Hunting first : I am a deer hunter and if I kill a sambar then by this act I have undertaken to fully utilize that animal by making an honest effort to remove the usable venison from the bush. So as a hunter I then toil to recover the venison and on some occasions this (in particular for a lone hunter) in big country involves a considerable physical effort sometimes taking several days. If I am too far from the vehicle or my camp to succesfully remove a sambar that I encounter from the bush then I don't take the shot. This would be the ethic of the vast majority of sambar deer hunters in this state. So we probably don't fit your concept of hunters undertaking the culling feral animals where sambar are concerned I'm afraid.....but as a group we do account for quite a few as the DSE 2010 harvest figures indicate.

Deer hunters do not shoot and leave a sambar for the wild dogs....this is deer culling & to my knowledge we don't have any government-employed deer cullers in this country. Deer cullers are not obliged to recover the venison but they may remove the tail as proof of a kill or to claim a kill-fee as it was in NZ during the red deer culling of the 60's & 70's but normally the animal is wasted and left to rot. I am quite confident in stating that the vast majority of deer hunters practice full-venison recovery and they do not kill and then waste a valued game resource like the sambar. And I hope the non-hunting public would agree with my view on this....an animal that can be utilized for food should be....shooting and leaving sambar to rot is an unacceptable and in our view unethical practice. The vast majority of Victorias licenced deer hunters have no intention of joining the ranks of any future "government deer cullers"....we value the sambar too highly to stoop to that level.

To those who feel some threat to their safety from deer hunters : the vast majority of you who have walked in the ANP of Victoria in a unit that allows seasonal sambar deer hunting have probably already shared the bush with a number of hunters as for the entire life of the ANP sambar deer hunting has been a permitted & popular activity. You just don't see us....we hunt deep in the bush and away from popular areas as the sambar is a timid and secretive animal. You may meet one of us walking along a trail back to our camp or vehicle but for most that'd be about it. If you encounter a deer hunter fear-not & stop for a chat as we are just normal everyday people who enjoy a walk in the bush just like you. Who knows...there may even be one of us living next door to you or teaching your children. Cheers

sambar358

[ULWalkingPhil]

Maybe I'm best to read the full thread before commenting. Just that I've read some reports of hikers being shot accidentally in the USA. Many advised to wear bright colour clothing so that hunters can easily identify you and not mistaken you for some animal. I'm only quoting what I have read in other forums from the USA. Read reports from the US hunters shooting at anything they have seen moving without checking what it is that there shooting at first. As soon I read this heading in this topic, first thing I thought of is those poor innocent hikers being shot in the US.

Getting rid off ferrel introduced species is not all that bad. Up here where I live, we had major problems with Foxes eating all the Endangered Marine Turtle eggs on our beaches. A Fox poisoning program was introduced and it has eliminated the threat to our endangered sea turtles. A lot of research had been put into deciding the best method to eliminate this threat and found that the baiting program was the best.

[Moondog55]

Well there are HUGE differences between the USA and Australia (and New Zealand ) real comparisons are very difficult to make.
Americans are avid hunters and they have a very short "legal" hunting season, this puts a large number of hunters into very small areas in a compressed time.
And while any death is regrettable when compared to the rate for traffic accidents the percentage is minimal. when comparing data from America we often make the mistake of looking at the numbers alone, and not the rate per 1000 or 100,000.
You also have to remember how crowded America is compared to OZ and also that hunting often occurs on farmland close to towns and cities and not just in isolated forest or mountain areas. I was talking to some dedicated hunters over there last January who were aware of the dangers and it was considered a minor problem compared to people killed by bears or attacked by pumas.
Death by accidental gunshot is such an emotional issue but it has to be compared to really dangerous activities like riding your push-bike to work or trying to cross Bourke Street (Pitt St) against the traffic lights or swimming outside the flags.

[wayno]

in nz because deer tend to spend most of their time in dense forest. the best time to shoot them by far is during the roar when the stags are most likely to come out of the bush.. so every man and his dog with a gun heads out to try and bag some antlers.... there almost guaranteed to be fatlities during the roar. large no's of hunters frequent certain places within a days walk of a road end....

[sambar358]

Yeah Wayno....I've been over on the sika a few times in the roar & it can certainly get a tad busy at times.

Sambar are a bit different in that they don't roar and they don't have a defined rut so the main criteria which determines when we go hunting is the weather cooling around May thru to October (no snakes & flies) and this is when most sambar hunters are about and when other bush users are at a low level in most areas coincidentally. Sambar hunters are not concentrated at "peak times" like they can be in NZ and in the US during their short-duration hunting seasons so drawing comparisons with other countries in regard to fatalities from shootings will give a false idea in regard to the "potential threat" to other bush users posed by sambar hunters in the ANP. In general terms hunters would use a different part of the bush than most walkers, fishermen and campers....the sambar prefer the remote dense forests and that's were they need to be hunted. While we may walk along a defined track or trail to get to where we intend to hunt the actual hunting is usually deep in the bush well away from anyone. In 40 years of sambar hunting I can honestly say that I have never met a non-hunter while I have been actually hunting in the bush. Cheers

sambar358

[nakedape]

traditional sambar deer hunting country and it had been for so many years.

Traditional? Traditional hunting of an introduced pest? Ha!

Deer hunting organizations put a good sensible case the the Land Conservation Council to retain deer hunting

Retaining equates to allowing them to breed, perpetuating the environmental damage in our National Parks - Very bright indeed!

[frenchy_84]

traditional sambar deer hunting country and it had been for so many years.

Traditional? Traditional hunting of an introduced pest? Ha!

How long do you have to be doing it before it becomes tradition? Does this mean that non indigenous Australians cant have any traditions?

[Greenie]

With the off track walking, I grew up walking off track more than on the track and still do sometimes. There is are number of forum members that walk off track, even in areas of horizontal scrub in Tassie for example. There is the chance that someone could walk straight into the area of hunting and be shot at?

[sambar358]

Nakedape.....critics of the sambar deer in our National Parks are long on rhetoric but very short on realsitic solutions. Call them introduced pest, ferals, environmental disasters ....put any emotive tag on them that you like but the fact remains that this makes absolutely NO difference to their numbers. If you want them "gone" then things need to be physically DONE to make them go away. Like it or not seasonal deer hunting in portions of the ANP has provided a method of control on the sambar deer numbers for 25 years or so....the ONLY means of control actually. Do you really think that by removing deer hunting from the ANP that the sambar will just go away....if you want them gone then there is just one thing that needs to be done....they need to be killed ! How do you propose that DSE & PV address the perception of building numbers of sambar deer ? Do you have a viable, effective and economically viable long-term solution to what you obviously see as the scourge of the ANP.....the sambar deer and deer hunters ? Cheers

sambar358

[maddog]

Nakedape.....critics of the sambar deer in our National Parks are long on rhetoric but very short on realsitic solutions. Call them introduced pest, ferals, environmental disasters ....put any emotive tag on them that you like but the fact remains that this makes absolutely NO difference to their numbers. If you want them "gone" then things need to be physically DONE to make them go away. Like it or not seasonal deer hunting in portions of the ANP has provided a method of control on the sambar deer numbers for 25 years or so....the ONLY means of control actually. Do you really think that by removing deer hunting from the ANP that the sambar will just go away....if you want them gone then there is just one thing that needs to be done....they need to be killed ! How do you propose that DSE & PV address the perception of building numbers of sambar deer ? Do you have a viable, effective and economically viable long-term solution to what you obviously see as the scourge of the ANP.....the sambar deer and deer hunters ? Cheers

sambar358

I was not aware that the decision to allow hunting in NSW National Parks had anything to do with the control of feral animals. I thought it was a decision based on the trading of a vote by a minority party in the Upper House for the sale of $3 billion of State assets. Is there any credible evidence to suggest that recreational hunting in national parks would have any environmental benefit? Over what time frame are we likely to see the benefits?

And yes, NPWS do need appropriate funding to manage an Estate the size of NSW's National Parks and Nature Reserves.

[Pteropus]

I was not aware that the decision to allow hunting in NSW National Parks had anything to do with the control of feral animals. I thought it was a decision based on the trading of a vote by a minority party in the Upper House for the sale of $3 billion of State assets. Is there any credible evidence to suggest that recreational hunting in national parks would have any environmental benefit? Over what time frame are we likely to see the benefits?

Yes, the decision in NSW was completely a political deal and had nothing to do with control of feral species. The problem is that many hunting lobbies use that line, that they are reducing feral species numbers by hunting, to justify hunting in NPs. I think most people realise that argument is a load of rubbish.
I just hope the State Governments do as well and don't see it as a cop-out to reduce feral management programmes that are in place....