old-growth forest logging

[stepbystep]

All good stuff Steve and Frenchy...

BUT!

Why does forestry have to be one of our main industries? Why can't we cut through in some other areas? We have some of the most vaired locations for a top notch film industry if we received some investment, the arts sector in Tasmania is huge and could be far bigger if given some commercial muscle. The NBN is about to roll out so how about some information and communications based industry? New ideas peeps!

We have a forest industry that can't compete with the likes of Brazil and SE Asia in the world market so why try? Or should the taxpayer keep the sinking ship afloat? Seems a touch counter productive don't you think?
The forestry practices of clearfell for woodchip then burn the residue is just backwards and has proven to be both non-profitable(for the state) and unpopluar(to the people). The industry is dying and sure the environmental movement has contributed to this but the industry itself has been unable to adapt to the changes required and is suffering because of that.

I agree completely that some green groups are making life a bit difficult for the dyed in the wool forestry industry but their days were numbered anyhow so it's a spurious argument.
I also agree with Frenchy as to what he thinks old growth is, it's the same way I see it. The Florentine Valley used to be old growth, anybody climbed onto Wylds Craig and had a look at what's left?
The government knows the industry has to be reformed, the ferals are never going to come to the table so best ignote them and go with the process. Pity FIAT and AFPA have just walked away from the talks.

Value add, sure, but go high end don't convert vast tracts of viable farmland into monoculture tree plantations to feed a pulp mill...
Somehow I think roads like the one to The Walls/Arm River/Florentine/Farmhouse Ck will remain open, perhaps some of the lesser known may dissapear, so be it, we'll just have to walk a bit further.

[MrWalker]

I've just been for a walk through the lower parts of the Gog Range, i.e. the Forestry areas, not the the cliffs on top. The cleared and burnt areas look pretty awful right now, but they are no different from a ploughed paddock in Agriculture, it just happens on a longer timescale. Further on the huge areas of young trees growing were terrific.

I cant understand why anyone complains about an industry that is the business of planting more trees.

[Ent]

SBS I admire optimism that roads will remain open but I get the feeling if the main bridge you cross to the Walls and Lees paddock was washed away its replacement will be a long time coming. Where will the money come from? Park's budget?

I look forward to a taxpayer funded sequel to the "Cars that ate Paris".

Cheers

[stepbystep]

SBS I admire optimism that roads will remain open but I get the feeling if the main bridge you cross to the Walls and Lees paddock was washed away its replacement will be a long time coming. Where will the money come from? Park's budget?

I look forward to a taxpayer funded sequel to the "Cars that ate Paris".

Cheers

You've been enjoying a taxpayer subsidised forestry industry for a long time Ent.

Don't misrepresent what I say, do you seriously think the road to The Walls will be let go?

Private investment is needed obviously, but a government with it's eyes focused on positive solutions is the only way of attracting that. Pity some of the posters to this thread aren't interested in positive forward looking solutions.

[Ent]

Hi SBS

Yes I do seriously believe that there will be a longish delay if the bridge went. The road to Lady Lake and Arm River Track are examples of roads not suitable for standard cars nowadays. As said there are three main road authorities and none are known for taking on neglected roads.

I mentioned that film as it is a classic example of subsided films from era where serious money was spent on the arts. Still the plot line might be guide to future income streams for the out of work.

Forestry has been systematically destroyed in Tasmania. We now will have massive steams of plantation timber coming on stream with the only option to be exported as wood chips.

That is the reality. It is joked that many people do not know that milk comes from cows. Well same applies to the economy. If money is not generated from some source then you can not fund services. Even the hallowed halls are starting to feel the pinch for the first time.

Regards

[stepbystep]

...longish...and if....

Too bad mate, you might have to walk the road rarely and probably never... still waiting for a compelling argument for the status quo...

[steveh72]

Hi step by step,

Yes I Agee new industries are needed, and Innovation will hold the key. I strongly hope that the NBN will attract this. I must admit arts aren't my thing so I won,t make comment out of ignorance.

I just have a different opinion that with smarter workings the forestry industry can be saved and the jobs with it for the world still needs timber products and the industry can (and needs) to be ecologically sound.

Unfortunately for TAS it needs every job it can muster at present for the economy is a basket case and to sacrifice an industry in the present climateis no good.

Unfortunately as well gov subsidies are a fact of life for many industries and if they were pulled because the industry was unviable etc then the effect on both Tas (and Aus) would be huge.

For record I also wish to add that I (or anybody i know) have absolutely no involvement either direct or indirect in the timber industry in Tas, this blog is merely my opinion. I just see a state fast going broke through conflict & indecision when surely a compromise can be met (again not only the Forrest industry though). The laughable north south debate for example over just about everything which sees resources duplicated all over the state when we have such a small population base to begin with.

Just an observation from your remarks - i take it that it's ok to cut down rainforest in se Asia & brazil, but not to harvest a plantation crop in Tas. ????????



Cheers

Steve

[stepbystep]

Just an observation from your remarks - i take it that it's ok to cut down rainforest in se Asia & brazil, but not to harvest a plantation crop in Tas. ????????

Haha hey Steve, not at all. I want innovation on how building products are designed and manufactured too! I think it sucks how things are done elsewhere but if it's not working here, why flog the dead horse?

I'm not opposed to forestry at all it's one one of the few renewable resources we have. I'm just opposed to redundant and wasteful practices that cause irreparable damage for zero net gain.

[steveh72]

Hi SBS,

I totally agree.

Cheers

Steve

[Ent]

Hi SBS

Can you enlighten us in what particular practices you consider inefficient? And the alternatives would be handy.

Cheers

[stepbystep]

Hi SBS

Can you enlighten us in what particular practices you consider inefficient? And the alternatives would be handy.

Cheers

How about the vast quantities of waste material left in coupes that is then dragged to the middle and firebombed, thereby poisoning the air and wasting the resource.

No contractors were ever encouraged to invest in mobile chippers?

I've also had a good look around plenty of coupes near Mt Wedge a cpl of years ago, the most perfect old growth Myrtle specimen was lying on the edge of the coupe burnt out along with plenty of others, pretty wasteful or dare I say inefficient.
This is a moot point anyway because they(FT) have a business model that isn't sustainable. FT has consistently posted a loss in recent years and there is no market for chips.

How about you highlight for the rest of us why an industry that can't support itself, or it's contractors is efficient?
Are you on the payroll in some way Ent?

[Ent]

Hi SBS

I was on the payroll about 18 months ago of a solely plantation based company and made it clearI was but was made redundant along with all but a small care and maintenance staff. Even though the company had paid all it's bills on time the bank panic and froze the proceeds of the capital raising. The protesting groups out the front of their head officer might have helped.

1. Mobile chippers do exist.

2. Forestry Tasmania tried to put in a complete processing system at Smithton to handle all timber and generate power from the waste.

3. Peg Putt was invited to discuss this ( I invited her) and to her credit turned up and while agreeing that it was a step in the right direction said no.

4. Put a plan to build a shed and maybe your neighbors might object. Put Forestry on the application and get ready for state wide objections.

SBS I have been around and in the industry since 17 years old. Endure personal abuse and been spate on as a 19 year old when a bunch of Eco thugs got their directions wrong and went to the wrong plant.

Forestry has tried just about everything but only ever received abuse from a very vocal quarter. As for minor species we have campaigns against a customer that used them.

Yeap Tassie has a reputation for being so toxic that no major company wants to get involved. Yes the anti forestry strategy has worked. We have no option but to export wood chips. When we find a market for fine veneers from minor species we can expect a high profile person to turn up and convey the message that customer better look elsewhere.

A read of the paper shows all primary industries in Tasmania are in a state of crisis. It is impossible to plan so business heads elsewhere. Heck, that is what our own superannuation funds are doing.

Regards

[stepbystep]

Thanks Ent.

Well there you go...

From your post it shows you have not only an emotional, historical and financial connection to the industry. Hardly puts you in an impartial place to contribute to the debate. Not that I believe you need to be. Passion is a good thing and your experience is relevant. But don't think by using an emotive example of spitting and abuse you are making much of a point. A guy I know has life long health effects because he was beaten by a log truck driver simply by standing on the side of the road with a camera, not in protest, simply filming a truck as it drove past. I certainly don't judge all truck drivers by one morons actions.

As I have detailed multiple times I'm only interested in a positive outcome, but things change, industries change. An example...

As you know I'm in the TV/Film business. I spent 7 years at Channel 9, Perth as a news and production editor. When I started we had 22(full and part time)news editors and 5 production editors on staff. 2 years after I left, therefore 9 years total, there is now 7 news editors and 1 production editor. This went right through every department of the station. A total staff of 220 was trimmed to 78 last time I checked. Why? Technology advancements, reduced local production, centralisation of resources etc etc

Necessity is the mother of invention. This is why I'm so keen for people such as yourself(and our political leaders) to look outwards, be creative and brave. How else are new industries going to be created?
Sometimes it's a far more noble thing to lick your wounds and admit defeat than to stubbornly resist the incoming tide.

btw if they have mobile chippers why do they nuke the SW every autumn?

[PeterJ]

. ....A read of the paper shows all primary industries in Tasmania are in a state of crisis. It is impossible to plan so business heads elsewhere......

Vineyards seem to be doing OK and there was a report that more dairy cows were needed to meet demand. I think they are considered primary industry.

[photohiker]

btw if they have mobile chippers why do they nuke the SW every autumn?

Very, very GOOD question.

[ILUVSWTAS]

btw if they have mobile chippers why do they nuke the SW every autumn?

Very, very GOOD question.

Well they tell me it's in my own interest in helping reduce the fuel for bushfires...

[Ent]

We have or in the process of losing yet another vegetable processing plant. The diary industry has gone through numerous cycles so maybe good news might be their turn as goodness knows they have had bad times. 2700 jobs lost on the NW coast, my home area.

I do wish people could understand basic mechanic. A mobile chipper due to transportation requirements can only handle timber of a certain size. They are best suited to plantation timber. The economic cost of transporting all wood waste is not feasible unless you can process it effectively. Check out and you will find if you generate electricity say from vegetable waste you are support but forestry it is specifically excluded.

Anyone that has worked in forestry is under no illusion of the tactics used to make the industry unviable. Largely these tactics have succeeded. Now time for the government and service sectors to cut their financial demands to suit. Get ready for voluntary redundancy schemes to be compulsory, assuming that the money is there to pay for them outside government sector.

So being in an industry means you can not comment. Ok, have it your way.

Regards

[doogs]

The diary industry has gone through numerous cycles so maybe good news might be their turn as goodness knows they have had bad times. 2700 jobs lost on the NW coast...

LOL. I blame the iphone.

[stepbystep]

So being in an industry means you can not comment. Ok, have it your way.

(personal comment removed by moderator)
I said no such thing and simply stated you couldn't be expected to be impartial.

The reason vegetable processors are failing is essentialy the same as the woodchip industry. They are attempting to compete at the wrong end of the market. The soils, water supply and air of the NW are amongst the best in the world for growing PREMIUM product, so why attempt to compete on the mass produced end of the market. It's obvious if we are going to participate in an open market that we will be slayed by the Chinese etc...

As for mobile chippers, surely an innovative operation will find a way, but no much easier to firebomb coupes for decades.

It is a very simplistic and weak argument to blame the conservation movement for all of the woes of the timber industry, are the greenies also blockading vegetable processing plants??
Your stance for the industry is really a good indicator as to the over riding mentality of the industry. Status quo or nothing huh?

[photohiker]

It is a very simplistic and weak argument to blame the conservation movement for all of the woes of the timber industry, are the greenies also blockading vegetable processing plants??
Your stance for the industry is really a good indicator as to the over riding mentality of the industry. Status quo or nothing huh?

As a mainlander based in SA where the evil local Forestry industry planted foreign species, while the pure as snow Tas Forest industry [*] has nurtured the forests by plundering the (thankfully quite large) natural resource without resorting to planting those foreign species, I have to agree.

The Tas industry is exhibiting siege mentality and does not seem to understand why. As such, the blame is appropriated to the messengers, not the message.

[*] Note the Irony. Harvesting rights (~100yrs) for SA Forests in the SE were recently sold off to private industry with protest, but not uproar. Such is life for a cash-strapped government.

[photohiker]

And now this:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-17/f ... ns/4265906

Forestry Tasmania chairman Miles Hampton has resigned over the State Government's restructuring plan for the state-owned company.

Mr Hampton said he could no longer support the policies of the Government and accused it of trying to starve Forestry Tasmania of cash.

Resources Minister Bryan Green wants to create a statutory authority to take control of production forests from Forestry Tasmania.

Does the government think FT is out of control? Sure smells like it.

[photohiker]

http://observertree.org/2012/09/15/mira ... g-day-275/

t’s first thing in the morning when I get the call. “Camp has been attacked” the voice on the end of the line is telling me. “What do you mean… attacked?”" I asked. “Someone’s gone there and trashed it, burnt it down.”

She is talking about Camp Florentine, Tasmania’s longest running forest blockade. The camp is run by the group I’m part of: Still Wild Still Threatened. And it is a place that is very close to my heart, having spent many years spending so much of my time out there in the past.

[..]

When I saw the photos I realised it was even worse than I thought. The entire camp had been torched. The main house, kitchen area and information hut were nothing but ashes. And the camp car had been stolen. This was not the first time that such acts of intimidation had been committed towards the protesters and community involved in the camp.

[..]

In 2009 when there was a fire-bomb attack on the camp in the middle of the night, many people were there and were awoken in terror. Two people at the camp had their cars set on fire by the attackers, as well as the camp’s information center being torched. That 2009 incident occurred within days of a violent assault on myself and another protestor at a peaceful action in another part of the Upper Florentine Valley. Logging contractors used a sledgehammer to attack a car that we were in. Smashing glass in on us and screaming abuse. When we eventually managed to get out of the car, fearing for our lives, my fellow protestor was dragged to the ground and kicked in the head.

Seems being spat on is the least of the issues for anyone standing up for their beliefs.

[Bailiwick]

Well said Photohiker and stepbystep. I'm amazed that Tasmanians can't see what is going on. In Europe there has been some good discussion about the destruction in Tasmania. The Weld, Styx, Florentine and now the Tarkine, and its so sad. I've seen many good videos showing the total waste. I'm please Gunns could not get any financial backing here.

[Bailiwick]

I hope you get to read this because it appears my posts are being blocked and censored by your site admin who don't want people to be told the truth.

Read this article --> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/apr/21/australia.environment. I find it strange that Tasmanians are so willing to put up with such waste and destruction. World heritage forest are being bombed with naplam and destroyed - not harvested, just destroyed - and just so Gunn's can plant woodchip plantations and Tasmanian's like walkintas and Ent say this forestry is a good thing. I agree with northnorthwest and sonofabeach, they should have their heads banged together.

Why are you killing off the forests? Why are you poisioning your own animal like the Tasmanian Devil which is found no where else and is now nearly extinct? Why are you mining and logging the Tarkine which is the largest temperate rainforest in the world? If you don't know what you are doing then read this book --> http://clindsayuk02.net.1101.soon2b.co.uk/p/604/tarkine. By 2020 the Tarkine will have been destroyed and for what - to make a few people richer?

I travel all over Europe, people are angry with this senseless waste. As iluvswtas has already told you, 80% of the so called "world heritage" forest has logging roads running through it. It belongs to the world. It is world heritage land. It is not yours to destroy. You should be taken to an international court because what you are doing is criminal.

[Son of a Beach]

I hope you get to read this because it appears my posts are being blocked and censored by your site admin who don't want people to be told the truth.

Several of your posts contained no content apart from abusing other members which is against forum rules. We don't approve posts that are against the rules, particularly when they contain no actual on-topic content. There was no "truth" blocked in any of those posts - merely rants agains other members, which is opinion, and against the rules. This latest post of yours contains actual content, and less abuse, and therefore has been approved.

NB: If you wish to carry on any further discussion with regards to forum moderation, please do not do so here (as it is against forum rules). For specific moderation incidents, please take it up with the moderation team in private. For general discussion about moderation, please take it up in the 'Forum and Site' forum (or in private).

[wayno]

in nz the national govt are undoing law designed to protect the environment.
the way is being laid for approval of commercial exploitation in national parks, specifically mining. doc has given approval for the potential installation of a monorail which will require clearing forest which in the past was protected....
so far the parks have been spared deforestation.
DOC have been instructed to form greater partnerships with commerial businesses to augment doc funding after the govt cut 50 million from their budget.
exactly what the limitations of what doc can allow , i'm not sure of, i havent seen any detail that shows what the limitations are....
the govt are looking to make more money out of the land, wherever that is.

[Bailiwick]

Helipcopter are used to Naplam bomb Tasmanian native forests.

Tasmania allows the clearcutting and burning of native forests that TWS believes to be the most carbon-rich on the planet so that they can be replaced with plantation seedlings - mostly for wood chips!

. In areas where extracting the trees would be too difficult, they are just burnt, not harvested. Why? Because as soon as all the native forest is turned into plantation the better as far as the government is concerned. They will then be able to re-harvest the plantations forever. Yes! This is the governments plan to end the old growth debate. Napalm the forest and replant it.

[wayno]

it used to be like that in new zealand, Pre dept of conservation, the old forest service were napalming native forests for plantations.
another part of the forest service was preserving forests and native animals. so it was decided to seperate out the different functions, the commercial plantation side was privatised and the conservation side was made its own govt dept with parks where the forests became protected from widespread destruction... there used to be "forest parks ' that were ambiguous. they were generally preserved native forest but the forest service could do what it wanted with them. a lot of the forest park were turned to protected conservation parks thankfully.
the govt were talking about open cast mining recently on places like great barrier islnd where people flying in would be able to see the mines... about 50'000 people marched in protest. then the govt talked it down to say teh mines woule all be underground. although, a plateau n teh west coast has been earmarked for an open cast coal mine. thousands of rare snails were manually moved out of the area. otherwise the area will be wrecked. tourists won't see those mines, its not on teh tourist trail and few aircraft fly near....

[frenchy_84]

Bailiwick, honestly mate before attacking others that have a different opinion to you perhaps you should at least check your facts. Any native forest which has been logging is not allowed to be replanted as plantation but must regenerate itself. And to suggest that native forest is just burned when it's to difficult to log is just plain stupid.

[tasrider]

Tasmania allows the clearcutting and burning of native forests that TWS believes to be the most carbon-rich on the planet so that they can be replaced with plantation seedlings - mostly for wood chips!

Is this true? Does anyone have a link to the original quote from The Widerness Society? I looked but couldn't find it.

I've been away from TAS for a few years and just getting up to speed with this topic again....

Seems it's still hot. Surprised to see so much pro destruction from some bush walkers. Funny linking it to agriculture lol. Yeah TAS is a bit backward when it comes to choosing a market, lets just keep aiming for the bottom like powdered milk and processed veggies. Dumb dumb dumb dumb. Ha ha. Anyway why care about forest destroyers when they only have jobs for 1% of workers. Yeah workers, not 1% of ppl.

Forestry is like whaling. We figured that one out eventually.