Bushwalker dies after drinking too much water

[wayno]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-17/b ... ection=tas

A coroner has found a Victorian man died during a Tasmanian bushwalk after drinking too much water.

Jonathan Paul Dent, 30, was an experienced bushwalker in good health when he died in the Dial Ranges, in Tasmania's north-west.

related article on this condition in endurance exercise

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/exe ... eplacement

http://www.outsideonline.com/blog/outdo ... ports.html

[ULWalkingPhil]

End of summer last year, on my first day of a 4 day hike at Fraser Island, we had some unseasonal hot, humid weather. 36C in the shade and very high humidity. I only had 13km to hike to first camp, carried 4 litres of water, I drank that 4 litres of water in apx two and a half hours. Felt like *&%$#! that last km. I didn't know if I was going to make it to camp. I often wondered if I drank to much water in that first couple of hours. I was worried I was going to dehydrate, so I kept drinking and drinking. Arrived at camp and had to lay down for half hour than I was fine.

I been doing some reading on this subject of late, Some doctors say that 8 glasses of water per day like some recommend can be far to much water.

Condolences to his Wife and family.

[wayno]

its as much about the salts in the body getting diluted as it is about high water intake, taking salt with high water consumption helps...
how much water you drink can depend on the types of food you eat. a lot of high carb foods have more than enough water in them for you to digest them...
protein needs four times the water. as carbs. fat ten times....
comes down to how much you're sweating, you may not realise in low humidity weather how much you're sweating since it evaporates quickly so you sweat more if its hot to keep cool.... to a certain extent in hot dry environments the water gets sucked out of you faster....

[ULWalkingPhil]

I've always, wondered what was the reason for my state on that first day of my hike. I don't know if it was lack of water, to much water or loss of salt. I've since started to take Gatorade with me in a powder form on warm days.

[RSD]

Gatorade is actually the wrong drink to be drinking for bushwalking, for a number of reasons.

Firstly it was designed as a big kick for the Florida Gators NFL team - it's not designed for an all day activity.
Secondly it contains a lot of sugars and other chemicals that actually absorb water or are diuretics

Of those type of drinks the recommended one is Powerade in the ratio of 4 parts water to 1 part Powerade

[ULWalkingPhil]

Gatorade is actually the wrong drink to be drinking for bushwalking, for a number of reasons.

Firstly it was designed as a big kick for the Florida Gators NFL team - it's not designed for an all day activity.
Secondly it contains a lot of sugars and other chemicals that actually absorb water or are diuretics

Of those type of drinks the recommended one is Powerade in the ratio of 4 parts water to 1 part Powerade

Thanks RSD, I did not know this. I'm ditching the Gatorade.

[wayno]

quarter teaspoon salt per litre of water.... to maintain sodium levels when drinking.

[ULWalkingPhil]

That cycling news link is very interesting reading. They recommend apx 250ml of water every 15-20 minutes for the first hour, than add salt drinks after the first hour. When I think about it, I used to race on the road circuit in cycling, I would have two bottles of 750ml of water with me, and that would last me a race of 100km. Often we used to mix Coca Cola in our water as a boost.

This has got me thinking that I must have suffered the effects off drinking to much water on that first day of hiking I mentioned above.

[wayno]

cycling can use a lot of wateer because of the greater forward speed the potential evaporation of sweat is greater than when walking.

[ULWalkingPhil]

Always raced in winter. Never summer.

I think I'm going to start taking salt with me. I looked at the powerade powder. 500grams makes 8 litres, to heavy.
Quarter teaspoon of salt per litre is a lot lighter.

[nq111]

Wayno's right - it is the salts dilution rather than the water per se.

This (hot weather hiking) is a personal interest of mine.

Interesting data comes from some of the ultra marathon crew. There is a definite need to aclimate to hot conditions to perform reasonably. Your sweat changes in quality and quantity.

There is also a limit to hoe much water one can absorb an hour - though most know that these days.

[andrewa]

Medical response here (GP).

The brain has a fantastic regulatory system in it re hydration/ dehydration. It measures blood concentration of sodium. If your sodium level is high, you are relatively dehydrated, and the thirst centre in your brain is stimulated to drink fluid. Most of the time this all works very well. It falls apart when people drink excessive amounts of fluid beyond what their brain needs - drinking for drinking's sake- your blood sodium gets diluted, and drops, and the symptoms you get from that are increasing drowsiness and confusion ( again, the body trying to self regulate, and stop you drinking).

The bottom line is "listen to your body" . Don't try to drink x liters per day. If you feel thirsty, you probably need fluid. If you haven't peed 4 times in 24 hrs, you probably need fluid. If you aren't thirsty you probably don't need to drink. It's actually quite simple, and whomever designed us did a fantastic job.

A

[Tony]

Interesting subject, I have recently been doing a bit reading up on sports hydration and have just started to use Gatorade while bushwalking and to supplement my cycling and running training.

Some very good information is on the AIS nutrition website about hydration, not much between Gatorade and Poweraid, I have also started having a protein supplement at the end of a hard days bushwalking, definitely helps me recover better.

Because of some recent medical problems I have also reduced reduced my fluid intake and have realised that I have been drinking too much in the past.

Tony

[Kinsayder]

That's pretty sad to hear of anybody dying in such circumstances.

Just on the Gatorade point; last December I did the Razorback and took two bladders and a Nalgene for fluids, one of the bladders I filled with Gatorade and it worked wonderfully. I get heatstroke ridiculously easily, so I thought it a good idea to ward off dehydradration. I had no notion of the Powerade thing though, why is it superior?

[matagi]

My advice is the same as andrewa - drink when you are thirsty.

If you really feel you need to add something, then use an oral rehydration product like Gastrolyte or Hydralyte. The electrolyte and sugar mix is optimised for efficient absorption.

[andrewa]

I think the electrolyte solutions - whichever brand - come into play when you start getting cramps. They also have a fair bit of sugar in them which msrs ypu feel better, but, at the end of the day, are designed for extremely high performance pursuits, which most of us arent into, and then they play the advertising hype beyond that. Cramping is often because of mismatch in relative ratios of sodium, potassium, magnesium, and calcium. An electrolyte solution seems to help. I'm not sure which agent is the cause, and my management strategy is anecdotal, not scientific.

Keep it simple, and take the Roger Caffin approach to life - there's a lot of advertising hype out there. Beware!

A

[mikethepike]

My advice is the same as andrewa - drink when you are thirsty.

I couldn't agree more. Athletes are generally advised to drink water (and this generally means little more than sipping it) before they feel thirsty because even with mild dehydration that you may not notice, there can be a lag time in converting glucose to energy if you wait to feel thirsty before you drink. The same situation hardly applies to the more plodding progress of bushwalkers.

The bottom line is "listen to your body" . Don't try to drink x liters per day. If you feel thirsty, you probably need fluid. If you haven't peed 4 times in 24 hrs, you probably need fluid. If you aren't thirsty you probably don't need to drink. It's actually quite simple, and whomever designed us did a fantastic job.

Thanks for that good advice Andrew. I'm doubtful if the medical profession ever said we need to drink more water except when referring to specific situations where people could be getting dehydrated, eg elderly people at home in summer (and in some cases,in less attentive nursing homes.) Instead, I think that the idea we need to drink 8 li a day was propagated by a a number of possibly self educated health 'gurus' (who have since gone quiet) and promoted by the media as a story that would help sell papers and magazines.

I can't be completely certain but I believe that I did suffer from drinking too much water a few years ago on a hot solo walk in a remote location and hence my interest in the topic. I got into a peculiar and weakened state that forced me to stop and rest (and feeling awful) and it wasn't till later the next day I fully recovered and I count myself lucky things didn't get worse.

[matagi]

Instead, I think that the idea we need to drink 8 li a day was propagated by a a number of possibly self educated health 'gurus' (who have since gone quiet) and promoted by the media as a story that would help sell papers and magazines.

I don't know where the 8 litres a day comes from - it started out as 8 glasses a day (8 x 250 ml = 2 litres) in the popular anti-cellulite diets of the late 70s/early 80s and seems to have grown from there. I guess on the basis of "if a little bit is good more is better".

[RSD]

I had no notion of the Powerade thing though, why is it superior?

Gatorade is designed to give you a rapid high level boost for a short period of time, whereas Powerade was designed for a lower level increase over a greater period of time so it has less sugars etc. The studies of the effects of the two drinks (and others) were done by a university to help determine the best drink mix to help wildfire firefighters cope with both heat and fatigue. I will try to find a copy of it or a link, but the outcomes for Gatorade and Powerade were to avoid Gatorade all together and dilute Powerade at the ratio of 4 parts water to 1 part Powerade. There is a fair bit of science in determining what drinks are suitable for certain activities and what aren't.

Slightly off topic but there are currently some studies going on in the mining industry as to the effects and benefits of your energy drinks like Red Bull. The study is still going but there has been some interesting things seen so far, including the different effects of the different drinks.

[Kinsayder]

Thanks RSD.

[madmacca]

There's some great (and reasonably accurate) advice in this thread.

It's difficult to come up with a blanket rule for this stuff - as things can vary very much on the conditions. Hiking in direct sun in summer with significant elevation gain - 4 litres might not be unreasonable. Hiking the same route on a cool and cloudy day and 4L might be excessive.

The colour of your urine is another indicator. Dark yellow shows you need to drink more. Virtually clear shows you are very well (over?) hydrated. Ideal is distinctly coloured, but not dark.

Acclimatisation plays a significant factor too. Even if you are fit but you work out in an air-conditioned gym, suddenly going walking in summer can lead to large loss of body salts. If you regularly exercise in warm conditions, your body gets much better at conserving salts, and you lose less salts through sweat. Even 2-3 days acclimatisation can help.

Personally if I am drinking (as against just cooking with) more than 2L of water a day, I start to think about electrolyte replacement. Generally I'll mix up a cup (250 ml) of electrolyte powder at lunchtime, and if it's a really stinking hot day, perhaps at dinner as well.

Mad

[wayno]

a study on drinking from bottles versus drinking from bladders showed , bladders were a better option
with bottles people were drinkking more infrequently and drinking larger amounts,
people drinking from bladders basically sipped at will
the end result was that people drinking from bottles were over drinking and ended up peeing out more water than the bladder drinkers. the constant availability of water to the bladder drinkers actually led to them drinking more sensibly since they could take more water easily at a moments notice rather than wait till the next break or when they could be bothered wrestling the bottle from a pack pocket...

[wayno]

scientifics studies have shown people aclimatised to exercising in the heat can sweat up to twice as much as those that arent.... acclimatised people tend to naturally drink more water as well and tey tend to sweat less salt
i havent seen it proven but its been hypothesised high salt content in sweat could be a way of the body dumping excess salt in people with excessive salt intake... henve the rate of salt loss when sweating can vary up to ten fold.
peronsally i dont cope well taking much salt at all...

[Moondog55]

Well I think it depends on so many factors, some of which are personal fitness levels and some environmental.
When i was living in The Alice and running marathons I did on occasion drunk up to 12 litres of water a day, I would weigh myself before and after a run and it was common to loose 2 or 3 kilos during the 1 or 2 hours of the training run and this was despite filling my stomach with water after the weighing and taking a 2 litre bota along. As my stomach can hold at least 3 litres of water my actual water usage in summer could be that high. The caveat there is that I was fit and acclimatised and I was running in 40C temperatures.
My experience is that it is really difficult to drink too much water and the risk; while real; is minor for most of us.
Urinating clear fluid once an hour may be an indication that we have drunk enough, doing so every more than 15 minutes probably is a sign we are over hydrated.
Of all the factors i think overall fitness has more to do with things than most of us realise.

[wayno]

also depends how well your body regulates minerals like sodium. some people have low sodium levels for various reasons and their bodies may not retain it as well. if you have low sodium and then binge drink on water and exercise in a hot environment you're at a higher risk of having health problems

[Pongo]

Gatorade is designed to give you a rapid high level boost for a short period of time, whereas Powerade was designed for a lower level increase over a greater period of time so it has less sugars etc. The studies of the effects of the two drinks (and others) were done by a university to help determine the best drink mix to help wildfire firefighters cope with both heat and fatigue. I will try to find a copy of it or a link, but the outcomes for Gatorade and Powerade were to avoid Gatorade all together and dilute Powerade at the ratio of 4 parts water to 1 part Powerade. There is a fair bit of science in determining what drinks are suitable for certain activities and what aren't.

Also works brilliantly as a hangover recovery. One of the first aiders at work got me onto it after a big night on the slops, same ratio, just slurp the top of a bottle and refill with poweraid, works a treat.

a study on drinking from bottles versus drinking from bladders showed , bladders were a better option
with bottles people were drinkking more infrequently and drinking larger amounts,
people drinking from bladders basically sipped at will

For me it's about water accessibility.

I'd chew through a bladder in no time , but with a standard pack and no bladder on I would put off drinking because it was a pain in the proverbial to access water from my pack - Stop, take of pack, access water, drink, secure water, put pack on, carry on...

Now that I'm sporting an aarn pack, I still stop to drink due to me using wide mouthed nalgenes (they would spill if I was walking), but without the hassle of removing my pack the 20 second rest for a drink is actually pleasant and so I do so regularly. It's done well for my hydration habits - given I prefer not to use a bladder.

[Strider]

I still stop to drink due to me using wide mouthed nalgenes (they would spill if I was walking)

Solution:
https://www.guyotdesigns.com/splashguards/

[Mountain Rocket]

It's difficult to come up with a blanket rule for this stuff - as things can vary very much on the conditions.

Gee this makes me think of a scene from Russell Coight's All Aussie Adventures.

'And the general rule for how much you will need is three litres per day, per person, per man, per degree over 25 degrees celsius, per kilometre, if walking on foot, in the winter months dividing it by two… plus another litre at the end.'

Sorry folks for not adding any beneficial to the topic but I just had to share that slice of Aussie wisdom

[wayno]

I still stop to drink due to me using wide mouthed nalgenes (they would spill if I was walking)

Solution:
https://www.guyotdesigns.com/splashguards/

camelback do nalgene bottles with a sip tube at the top that self closes

[walkinTas]

I think one of the best things you can do is pay attention to is your pee. If you walk all day and don't pee, you are probably not drinking enough. If your pee is getting darker and more odorous, you know you need to drink more. Alternatively, if you're peeing frequently and it looks like tap water, you are probably drinking too much.