Budawangs Sketch Map - where to get?

[Liger]

I know this might be close to "publishing details of access to sensitive areas", but I think it's one step removed, so here goes:

Where could I get a copy of the Budawangs sketch map? My google-fu has failed me, I am willing to pay a reasonable price.

(I don't have access to a large printer or map paper, otherwise I could probably stitch something together by panning the copy on the NLA site...)

[Nuts]

This One?:

[FatCanyoner]

Where could I get a copy of the Budawangs sketch map? ... I am willing to pay a reasonable price.

+1 !!!

[melinda]

Hi Liger,
The National Library can print them on demand. See link below
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/1146 ... et=1&max=3
$16.50

[jackhinde]

you cannot get that printed as it is still within a copyright period, tried that a year or two ago.

i have a few photocopies of a relo's copy, would love to get an original myself to frame for the wall

[kanangra]

I think I've got a couple? An old tatty one and a newer one? I didn't realise they were collecters items.

K

[Nuts]

It's an unusual one. The copyright isn't owned by the crown, the copyright holder is 'The Budawang Committee', i'd assume part of Coast & Mountain Walkers?
I'm not sure of the final publication year (mine is 1990.. the year we used it) but regardless, you could just ask (assuming also that CMW still exist?)

Budawang Committee- 40 Alexandria Avenue, Eastwood 2122

Happy to have them printed/sent if all kosher. Unfortunately I just have one copy (and some great memories!!)

[LAMEA-Gals]

This was in the latest Coast and Mountain newsletter. A bit detailed but the instructions at the end should help you get the one you want......


Budawang Sketch Map
The latest edition (Edition 9, published 1998) has been available from late August as print-on-request online at the
National Library of Australia (NLA) website www.nla.gov.au. Details of all purchase options available for various
editions of the Budawang Map are (in the approximate words of the NLA):
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/6093653 is a record for a CD we made containing the scans of the 1st.
Edition, and both sides of the double-sided 9th. Edition.http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/6093567 is a record for the print-out we made of the 1st. Edition (in
essence a fill-sized colour copy of the original map we were lent).
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/6093471 is a record for the print-out we made of the 9th. Edition (in
essence a fill-sized colour copy of the original map we were lent). Because our plan-printer cannot print doublesided,
we have had to print each side of the 9th. Edition separately.
Thus we have a digital copy and a facsimile paper copy of each of the 1st. and 9th. Editions.
The online entry for 6093653 (the CD) is headed as ‘Northern Budawang Ranges [electronic resource]’, whilst
6093567 and 6093471 are headed as ‘The northern Budawang Range and the upper Clyde River Valley [cartographic
material] / compiled and drawn by G.L. Elliott’.
The maps were lent to the NLA by cartographer and copyright holder George Elliott (who was a member of the
erstwhile Budawang Committee, and as well is a long-time Honorary Life Member of the CMW) for permission to
copy and offer for sale.
For each item, you can ‘Order a copy’ (refer to the button at the bottom of each entry) and then ‘Add to cart’ using
Copies Direct and then proceed accordingly. You seem to have to use the ‘Add to cart’ button again later in the
ordering process. Remember (for particularly 6093471, the printout of the 9th. Edition) to include clear instructions
according to the notes following. The 9th. Edition map (each side) costs $16.50 plus postage, which means that if you
wish to purchase the notes printed on the reverse side of the original map as well, you will need to pay an extra $16.50,
and specify your requirements as a note in the ordering procedure so that you can be invoiced appropriately.
The historic 1st. Edition (1960) is also available to be printed at the same cost (refer to 6093567 above). This
edition does not, of course, have any notes printed on the reverse side.
The 1st. Edition, 9th. Edition and notes from the 9th. Edition are also available together as three (3) separate digital
images (JPEG or TIFF) on a CD (refer to 6093653 above). Note that even though the NLA’s pricing schedule states
that images can be purchased at ‘$45 per image’, the Editor’s contact at the NLA librarian Dr Brendan Whyte stated
that “I think we can do all 3 for $45 given they’re on a CD and we can just copy them together quite easily. When
ordering, put in a note to the affect that ‘Brendan Whyte said $45’, in case the system decides to outguess us . . .”.
Please remember that copyright applies to these maps.

[jackhinde]

i went through this proces for the latest map, was charged the 16.50 and two weeks later got an email saying it was unable to be processed due to some copyright issue and received a refund?
odd

[colinm]

The map is a thing of beauty, and a real example of the cartographer's art. I can well imagine hanging it on the wall, and I'd pay $16.50 for that, and more for the frame

You surely wouldn't use it for hiking, though, would you? (though I've seen people do it.)

Are you more after the information included on it which isn't currently available on a topo (e.g. camping caves, etc?) I believe some of that has been translated to electronic form.

[colinm]

Oh, one more thing regarding copyright (and IANAL, etc) ... the Budwawangs Committee, wonderful organisation that it was, doesn't exist anymore as an entity. As I understand it: their papers were given to the Mitchell Library (including the records of their final meeting, which I presume records the winding up of the committee.) The address of record is either that of the wonderful camping store in Eastwood which ceased trading a decade ago, or that of one of the members (don't know which member, haven't sought to pry into that.) Anyway, all the instruments pertaining to the Budawangs Committee are in a museum ... you can't get less active than that - it doesn't exist anymore as an entity.

It therefore seems to me that the copyright would revert, in the absence of any successor in interest (which, well, I dunno ... but I'd bet there isn't one) under the Berne Convention (which vests copyright in the author ab initio) to the cartographer George Elliott.

I guess the question that has to be resolved is why the NLA thinks there's any lack of clarity on this question of copyright, when an hours' research would determine it quite conclusively.

Incidentally, the maps aren't the only wonderful document the BWC produced - there's also Pigeonhouse and Beyond, and The Man from the Misty Mountains (?) They're all totally worth reading.

[Allchin09]

I know the Bushcraft Equipment store in Wollongong had a few copies last time I dropped in. I also found an electronic copy of the map that I found after searching in the web for a while.

[Liger]

1st: sorry I started a thread and didn't get back to it for a few days - I thought I'd be emailed if I got a reply, but apparently that only happens with PMs...

Nuts: yeah that one... and I'm jealous

Colinm: I was hoping to "use it for bushwalking" in addition to a real topo map and a gps to find caves and/or tracks that weren't on the map. I got back from my first three day trip into the area yesterday (*&%$#! hot and leechy!) so I won't be back for a few weeks at least, but would really like to have the info for next trip's planning. Any more pointers towards the electronic form, btw? The map just looks like a Tolkienesque capsule of bushwalking knowledge that might not translate well into gpx files

LAMEA-Gals/melinda: Thanks for the headsup - I didn't realise that printing was an option to try. I'll give the process a shot if I can't get hold of one via the Wollongong shop Allchin09 suggested even despite jackhinde's experience.

[Nuts]

I wouldn't be too jealous Liger, mine is only one sided
I'd love to see the notes!

[Travis22]

This turned up from google images, its the very first result; 'Budawangs Map'


http://www.hugin.com.au/budawangs/budaw ... ch_map.htm

[colinm]

I've been thinking very hard about this, and have been making some enquiries.

I think that the locations of camping caves, etc, presented on the sketch map should probably be kept from the public domain, but that the routes need not be kept secret. This relates to the conversation here http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10907.

[wallwombat]

I think that the locations of camping caves, etc, presented on the sketch map should probably be kept from the public domain, but that the routes need not be kept secret.......

Then we would have groups creating new campsites in a fragile range, where campsites are few.

Then we would get groups calling for a rescue because they can't find water in a range where there are few sources of water.

Maps are sources of valuable information.

Their creators normally intend them to be used as sources of information.

I think that someone making an arbitrary decision to rewrite history and deny people the right to information that was made available decades ago, is somewhat elitist.

As is the idea that people who walk with bushwalking clubs, somehow, have a kind of secret arcane knowledge that no one else is allowed to have.

[colinm]

I think that the locations of camping caves, etc, presented on the sketch map should probably be kept from the public domain, but that the routes need not be kept secret.......

Then we would have groups creating new campsites in a fragile range, where campsites are few.

I didn't mean all of them, I meant the ones which aren't in the public domain.

Then we would get groups calling for a rescue because they can't find water in a range where there are few sources of water.

I don't think that's quite true, because a map seldom guarantees water, and as it happens there are few soaks or springs marked on the map in question (I can only think of one, mostly because water's not really a problem in that area.)

Maps are sources of valuable information.
Their creators normally intend them to be used as sources of information.

I absolutely agree with both of your points. The information in maps has value.

I think that someone making an arbitrary decision to rewrite history and deny people the right to information that was made available decades ago, is somewhat elitist.

I do not think the decisions are purely arbitrary, and in this case I am informed that they are not - I don't think people elide information from maps any more lightly than they include it on maps. That is not to say that I would necessarily agree with the decisions, but they're not always only arbitrary. Your actual contention seems to be that they're not arbitrary judgements, but rather are intended to possess the information for personal exploitation. This is not always true, but it's also not always false.

As is the idea that people who walk with bushwalking clubs, somehow, have a kind of secret arcane knowledge that no one else is allowed to have.

I'm going to have to refer to this again http://panchrestomatic.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/secret-bushwalker-business.html for the matter of 'elitist.' I know that some secrets are quite literally kept by elites (e.g. there are some rock carvings that're kept secret, but once you get there you find a NPWS visitor's book signed by a bunch of private school Duke of Ed parties.)

I think it's a complex question, and there are many cases to ponder. Many people would probably agree that the wild location of the wollemi pines shouldn't be public, I suspect. Is that elitist? We'd all probably prefer that our favourite camping spot wasn't *too* well known. Is that elitist?

I don't think there's a simple answer, at least not yet, not without a lot more thinking and discussion.

[colinm]

I don't mean to imply that bushwalking clubs should be the only (or are the best) structure by which information flows. After all, we are using bushwalk.com, and some quite good information flows through here.

However. I think there is merit in the way clubs keep information - it is this: clubs have a concept of development of skill, and require some engagement and commitment, and some serious effort in exchange for the information. It is not free, there is a cost to acquire the information, although the cost does not flow to the club as revenue.

This is, quite simply, a process of initiation. We believe, I think, that people who come to possess knowledge through such initiation are therefore motivated to use it responsibly. I think it only becomes elitist when that presumption is false, or irrelevant to the process and purposes of initiation. I also think that the whole secrecy thing tends inevitably to make *any* group of people stupid, over time.

Where it's breaking down is that the information is digital, and the cost of duplicating is 0. So it's now quite possible to gain information at very low cost, and thus the initiations don't occur. This process is only going to accelerate, and the end result will be that people currently initiated may choose to let the knowledge die. I think it is important to consider what arguments one might make to convince such a person that they should not make that choice.

[Liger]

colinm and wallwombat,
what do you think about transferability of "initiatedness"? Should an experienced and knowledgeable bushwalker from one area be able to get access to the "secret" parts of other national parks if they are only visiting for a while and are quite far from home?

[WarrenH]

... what do you think about transferability of "initiatedness"?

Special men's business? ... perhaps go the the Bora gound on Quiltys Mountain, or on Sturgiss and there is also a Bora ground on Shrouded Gods Mountain and look for the faces of the Old People in the trees. You'll hear the spirits of the Old People whispering to you when the wind blows through the Mallee. The spirits of the Old People are the ones who know.

Liger, I also put a post on Who Are You? ... for you.

Warren.

[colinm]

what do you think about transferability of "initiatedness"? Should an experienced and knowledgeable bushwalker from one area be able to get access to the "secret" parts of other national parks if they are only visiting for a while and are quite far from home?

Mate, I'm not an initiate, more like a halfie/half-assed anthropologist

I'd guess the place to ask would be the clubs that walk in that area - if they have an established rite to permit guests, then go for it. I imagine they would have something like that. And maybe I'm wrong, and the initiation model I think I observe is just my overly fertile imagination.

You *will* get access to the map/maps, and you will be able to transfer and translate the knowledge, no doubt about that. The map itself is (I think) mainly an historical document and a beautiful artefact, the information on it is up to 50 years old. The information on it is public, and will eventually accumulate into the public domain.

There are some gotchas, too. Talking about camping caves for example ... there's one which was elided from later maps which (I suspect) derived from one of the camping spots mentioned in the partial sketch given here http://ozultimate.com/sbw/1957/195710.pdf ... or maybe it's a really archeologically significant actual camping cave, or who knows what, without walking out there to confirm it. The information on the maps is only ever partial, and reliant upon peoples' reports - you have no way to know how reliable it is.

FWIW, BTW, .nsw.gov.au is pushing NPWS to release its GIS data ... which they will do over time. The first problem they had, though, was to go through and mark every track, every point of interest, as to whether it was public or not. Same problem, but it won't help you find caves they asked to remove from the maps you're talking about.

[colinm]

perhaps go the the Bora gound on Quiltys Mountain, or on Sturgiss and there is also a Bora ground on Shrouded Gods Mountain and look for the faces of the Old People in the trees.

Do the trees still have evidence of carvings in them? I guess I'd have to go have a look

As (little as) I understand the ceremonies, they required two continuous generations of initiates to function - only after you had been through two initiations (one as initiate, one as initiator) did you learn how to set up and conduct the ceremonies. Fascinating stuff.

Something I find really amusing about this whole issue is the way the latest editions of the topo maps moves the title text of Mt Quilty so it covers the bora ground location ... someone must have made a conscious decision to do that, and what good did they think they were doing? The politics of cartography.

[colinm]

Just spoke to NLA. They have all 7 editions, cleared for duplication (scanned at 300DPI) and are processing a whole bunch of requests as we speak. So ... it's as LAMEA-Gals reported above, Liger, and you can get your copies. So much for 'initiation' huh I guess dealing with copyright is a kind of ordeal.

[jackhinde]

good stuff, i will give them another go.
i am unsure if quilty should be described as a "bora ground", stone arrangement of ritual/spiritual significance perhaps? as for carved trees, there aren't many trees as such near the stones and i am unsure if carved trees feature in the local practices.

[michael_p]

I know the Bushcraft Equipment store in Wollongong had a few copies last time I dropped in. I also found an electronic copy of the map that I found after searching in the web for a while.

I was in the Gong today and stopped by Bushcraft Equipment Store. They only had one copy on the shelf so I bought it.

Thanks Allchin09 for the tip.

Cheers,
Michael.

[Allchin09]

Good to hear you could pick one up, I'm not quite sure if they are still in print so that might be the last copy that the shop will have for a while.