Is Wilderness a Myth?

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Re: Is Wilderness a Myth?

Postby Hallu » Mon 03 Dec, 2012 9:41 am

stepbystep wrote:
Hallu wrote:Well usually when you tell someone he's wrong, you say why, otherwise it's just pointless and disrespectful.


One of the rules on this forum is not to discuss sensitive areas, does this mean sensitive areas don't exist? Or should they not be mentioned in general terms?

I would never publish details of these sites anywhere, let alone sticking them on the internet. Best not mention they exist at all I guess as that is pointless and disrespectful :roll:

Some, myself included feel some of your generalisations are disrespectful, including that map, but something tells me you'll see it differently Hallu...


Well if it's best not to mention they exist at all why did you mention them ? Unfortunately your ego overcame the respect you have for those sites, and you ended mentioning them to show off, and now you try to call me disrespectful ? Besides it's not "my" map, chase and blame its author if you want.
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Re: Is Wilderness a Myth?

Postby stepbystep » Mon 03 Dec, 2012 1:03 pm

Hallu wrote:Well if it's best not to mention they exist at all why did you mention them ?


Not what I said Hallu, I put the question to you...

I think it's fine to mention these areas exist, just not to give co-ords... sorry for being such an ego driven show off :roll:
The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders ~ Edward Abbey
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Re: Is Wilderness a Myth?

Postby jackhinde » Thu 13 Dec, 2012 6:21 pm

back on topic.
Having just spent 4 days at the annual Australian Archaeological Association conference it would seem that the consensus is that this was very much a cultural landscape prior to 1788, and that fire regimes were what defined ecosystems in the holocene, and perhaps right back into pleistocene. Indeed one speaker even has a hypothesis that the climate of this continent was somewhat determined by burning practices. Some very interesting studies regarding biodiversity and biomass in anthropomorphic fire managed areas due to edge effect and close proximity of habitat in different succesion/regrowth states are appearing, as are better core studies off shore and in swamps that use new biomarkers or dna to indicate flora present.
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Re: Is Wilderness a Myth?

Postby maddog » Fri 14 Dec, 2012 11:37 am

jackhinde wrote:back on topic. Some very interesting studies regarding biodiversity and biomass in anthropomorphic fire managed areas due to edge effect and close proximity of habitat in different succesion/regrowth states are appearing, as are better core studies off shore and in swamps that use new biomarkers or dna to indicate flora present.


Jackhinde,

Are you able to provide references for the studies discussed at the archaeological conference? In particular those regarding comparative biodiversity in the fire managed areas and the edge effect / diversity of habitat.

An increase in the quality of biodiversity, and health of ecosystems in general, seems to me to be one of the more interesting (and likely) possibilities of landscape level fire management.

Cheers
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Re: Is Wilderness a Myth?

Postby jackhinde » Fri 14 Dec, 2012 11:16 pm

not easily as i took few notes... i was jealous of all those with smart phones who kept taking shots when interesting figures and diagrams were put up, might have to stop being a luddite!
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Re: Is Wilderness a Myth?

Postby jackhinde » Fri 14 Dec, 2012 11:30 pm

just realised how unhelpful that post seems. i am off bush for the week end and am flat out next week, but i will endeavour to dig up the info you're after soon (pun intended)
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Re: Is Wilderness a Myth?

Postby Pteropus » Thu 20 Dec, 2012 4:46 pm

Some discussion on inappropriate burn regimes currently used in northern Australia’s Kakadu region -> http://theconversation.edu.au/scientist ... mals-10089
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Re: Is Wilderness a Myth?

Postby maddog » Tue 15 Jan, 2013 3:36 pm

Given the inappropriate fire regime currently witnessed around the country, the following from Gammage (Ch 6) seems relevant to the discussion;

People could not have survived such fires [ACT fires, 2003] in 1788. Had they faced the Black Saturdays and Ash Wednesdays white Australia has suffered, most must have died. Any uncontrolled fire menaced: a day's fire might eat a year's food. Latz observed of central Australia,

'After several very good seasons the amount of flammable material can build up to such an extent that a single wildfire, initiated in the height of summer can sweep over huge areas of the desert destroying everything in its path. When good rains do not follow these fires, the effect on the flora and fauna (and even the soils) can be devastating. If this situation has arisen in the past it is hard to imagine how Aboriginal people could have survived'

This situation rarely arose. People had to prevent it or die. They worked hard too make fire malleable, and to confine killer fires to legends and cautionary tales. But a great challenge was a great opportunity. Fire could kill, but fire or no fire could distribute plant communities with the precision of a flame edge. Fire could be an ally.


Gammage goes on to describe, amongst other things, Aboriginal burning (including in the summer months), and fires that though fierce were not so hot that a man could not walk behind them. For example;

in 1814 Evans wrote that the Blue Mountains 'have been fired; had we been on them we could not have escaped; the flames rage with violence through the thick underwood, which they are covered with'. He recorded more fires the next day, but walked close behind the flames. He could not have done so behind any of Australia's recent big fires. West of the Bogan Mitchell saw 'that much pains had been taken by the natives to spread the fire, from its burning in separate places. Huge trees fell now and then with a crashing sound, loud as thunder, while others hung just ready to fall...We travelled five miles through this fire and smoke. The fire was hot enough to burn trees, but not to link 'separate places', or prevent riding amongst them.

...

These were summer fires, yet Europeans could travel near them, and most were out in a day. A Pitjantjatjara elder explained, 'before the arrival of white people Anungu did not know about really large bush fires, but now they do...the country had been properly looked after and it was not possible for such things as large scale bushfires to occur. A Darling and Paroo pioneer noted:

another remarkable characteristic of the aborigine...the care taken by them to prevent bush fires. In my long experience I have never known any serious bushfire caused by the blacks, and the condition of the country, the growth of the trees and bushes, such as she oaks, pines, and acacias and a score of other kinds of trees that bush fires always destroy were, when the white man arrived, flourishing in the perfection of beauty and health...Australia in its natural state undoubtedly was liable to the ravages of extensive bushfire, and with so many hostile tribes it seems as if they would be a frequent occurrence, yet they evidently were not


In addition to the extinction of many species caused by changed fire regimes as documented by Flannery, is the dogma of Wilderness and 'conservation by neglect', with the implicit denial of beneficial anthropological influence on the Australian landscape - also responsible for today's destructive infernos?
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Wilderness is in the eye of the beholder

Postby AndyJarman » Fri 14 Jun, 2013 2:33 pm

You know the countries of Europe that speak a language heavily influenced by Latin do not have a word that equates to the English word Landscape or the German word Landschaft? Landscape is a Dutch word that encapsulates the mental act of embracing the scene before you as a whole. Whilst the Teutonic countries of Europe haven't exactly freed themselves of the tendency, they at least have a word that is capable of identifying the view before us without automatically designating it according to its economic role or value. Consider the French word Paysage, it is contained in the English words Pay and Passage - something you cross to get somewhere or something of monetary value.

Now the word wilderness is a similar word. If you don't know, or if you can't identify, features within a landscape - you call it a wilderness. If you can, its called a place.

If there is a place there is territory, there is economic interest. Australians commonly call their homes their 'properties'. Which to an Englishman can appear to be gauche, or a nouveau riche affectation (sacre bleu! pardonnez mon Francais!)

We need to escape our subjugation to the will of the collective, by entering into a place that is unattainable by others as their property, as decreed by the highest governing body (bless Her little cotton socks).

That is one of the underlying reasons for the sense of freedom the word wilderness conveys to us, we the miserable whores of the machine age. That is why it is such errant risible nonsense when we hear from our Civil Servants that there is no Uranium mining in Kakadu National Park and the boundaries of Karijini National Park may be altered from time to time to suit the economic imperatives of Fortescue mining inc.

In the words of Ace Venturer, Pet Detective - DO YOU FEEL THAT? HUH? DO YOU FEEL THAT?
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Re: Is Wilderness a Myth?

Postby walkinTas » Fri 14 Jun, 2013 2:48 pm

Great post Andy. :) So can I conclude that wilderness is in the eye of the beholder.
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Re: Is Wilderness a Myth?

Postby AndyJarman » Fri 14 Jun, 2013 2:54 pm

Mon Dieu! People actually read this stuff! My partner's a Spanish speaker we spend hours laughing at semantic tail chasing!
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Re: Wilderness is in the eye of the beholder

Postby Hallu » Fri 14 Jun, 2013 3:03 pm

AndyJarman wrote: Consider the French word Paysage, it is contained in the English words Pay and Passage - something you cross to get somewhere or something of monetary value.


Paysage in French has nothing to do with "pay" or "passage", its root is actually "pays", which means country. A "paysage" represents the characteristics and attributes of a limited space before an observer. It has the same meaning as landscape, and can be used in the same variations (political landscape, soundscape etc...). It's actually "wilderness" that has no equivalent in French, you got it the wrong way around :D
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Re: Is Wilderness a Myth?

Postby walkinTas » Fri 14 Jun, 2013 3:32 pm

Would "désert" be the wilderness referred to in the bible or do French bibles use a different word?
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Re: Is Wilderness a Myth?

Postby Hallu » Fri 14 Jun, 2013 3:46 pm

I'm no expert (I've never even opened a bible), but I'm guessing that the bible doesn't refer either to the wilderness or the desert as translated in French, it's an interpretation. According to wikipedia there was no French word for wilderness until one was created in 1960 ("naturalité" which is quite an ugly word that I've never heard before in my life). Usually when in English you say "into the wild" or "in the wilderness", French people just use the word "nature" or "nature sauvage" (wild nature).
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Re: Is Wilderness a Myth?

Postby walkinTas » Fri 14 Jun, 2013 4:06 pm

I was hoping you were an expert. :D Still, according to the online bible in French Isaiah 40.3 "Une voix crie: Préparez au désert le chemin de l'Éternel". So yes, the bible uses désert. Wild nature sound much more sensible.
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Re: Is Wilderness a Myth?

Postby Hallu » Fri 14 Jun, 2013 4:39 pm

I meant that somebody translated what was used in classical Hebrew to "desert" in French and "wilderness" in English (so the 2 translators obviously disagreed), but not being experts at classical Hebrew, we don't know who's right.
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Re: Is Wilderness a Myth?

Postby AndyJarman » Fri 14 Jun, 2013 5:34 pm

Bloomin eck! Its the meaning you give to words guys, not the meaning they give to you!

So the Anglo Saxons sat down and agreed at a United and Combined Anglo Saxon committee meeting what is was that their overlord butchers meant by Pays when they started using the word, sorry didn't realise that, I let my membership lapse and haven't been keeping up with the minutes (formidable, GEDDIT!!?).

Right ... here's one.

Prior to the introduction of 'Western Style' Government the Arabs didn't recognise property until it was walled (that prevented it drifting away and made it more economically useful). The Arabic for desert is Sahara and it was treated by Islamic law much as the open ocean is treated by the Western hegemony - as wilderness. But get this, we know the Sahara as a place, and we can locate it on those funny little globes Mercator the shoemaker started producing in Holland in the 1500s.

Like us, until very recently the Arabs never drew boundaries across their oceans - what was the point, the only thing out there is the odd caravan (caravans and property, hmm now that's interesting isn't it...). Rub Al Khali is a large swathe of the Southern Arabian peninsula, the name translates as 'the empty quarter' and looks like a huge endless storm tossed red ocean of enormous waves frozen solid.

Then we came along with our mechanised lives and hey presto 'mythical' lines (as in 'mythical' wildernesses). We drew lines across places we couldn't even know existed. Western Australia's land border was decided upon hundreds of years before the people who drew that line even conjured up the name Australia or knew it was even there!! East of this line was ours west of that line was yours. Portugal and Spain in WA's instance. So you see, your very maps that you use to enter the 'great' wilderness is in fact destroying it for you!

Is that concrete all around me, or just in my head (Mott the Hoople, All the Young Dudes).

Ding ding...ROUND TWO!!
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Re: Is Wilderness a Myth?

Postby Hallu » Fri 14 Jun, 2013 5:40 pm

Are you on speed or what ? What you say doesn't make sense at all lol
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Re: Is Wilderness a Myth?

Postby MrWalker » Fri 14 Jun, 2013 7:08 pm

Hallu wrote:Are you on speed or what ? What you say doesn't make sense at all lol


I thought it made perfect sense, after I did a bit of research. :roll:
The WA border was first fixed around 1493 to 1523 and that border (at 135th meridian) was accepted by the British in 1788, although by 1825 they decided Portugal didn't want WA after all and changed the border to its current position at (roughly) 129th meridian.

Thanks to AJ for leading me to that fascinating bit of information.
It does suggest that a lot of current boundaries don't make any more sense than that. :?
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