Accessing public places through private land

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Accessing public places through private land

Postby FatCanyoner » Tue 26 Feb, 2013 8:20 pm

G'day folks,

This is a post I've just published on my blog (http://fatcanyoners.org/bush-guide/acce ... vate-land/) that I thought might be of interest to others.

Access issues are a major concern, not only for canyoners, but also bushwalkers, climbers, kayakers, etc.

Interestingly, I also discovered a major threat to our ongoing access to many areas. The NSW Government quietly announced last year that it was going to speed up the process of selling off “paper roads” — those little strips of land that actually allow public access into many areas. According to their announcement, over the next four years they want to finalise the sale of almost 10,000 of these sections of public land to neighbouring landholders.

I'm also really keen to hear any additional thoughts / feedback of ways to manage this issue, and ensure ongoing access through private properties.

Canyons are all on public land right, so our continued access to them isn’t a problem? Well, the more you canyon, or bushwalk, or do any other outdoor pursuits, the more often you discover that there are many amazing areas that require private land to be crossed to reach them. In fact, it is surprising how many popular places are accessed by crossing private land — with consent — without most people even realising.

But the problem with this is that legally we have no right to be there. The ongoing good behaviour of other canyoners is the only thing sustaining our access, and the actions of one group of idiots could potentially close off large areas. In recent years the canyoning community had to deal with this issue when a new landholder at Mt Tomah closed the long-running access to Claustral — one of the most beautiful canyons in the Blue Mountains. After two years an alternative has been found, but it certainly caused a lot of angst during that time.

Interestingly, it seems this problem is only going to become a bigger one. The NSW Government quietly announced last year that it was going to speed up the process of selling off “paper roads” — those little strips of land that actually allow public access into many areas. According to their announcement, over the next four years they want to finalise the sale of almost 10,000 of these sections of public land to neighbouring landholders. (Read the media release and a fact sheet on how you can purchase this public land.)

All this means two things for people like us, who love visiting wilderness areas. Firstly, we need to put some pressure on the government to ensure existing access by bushwalkers and canyoners is considered in any land sales (which can be as simple as sending a letter to your local MP). Secondly, we need to look at how we interact with private landholders in key areas to ensure we create cooperative relationships that can sustain future access. Unfortunately, gaining permission to cross private land looks like something that will increasingly be required.

The origin of this post was actually an email I sent to the OzCanyons group, but I’ve expanded it substantially based on the feedback I received. In fact, this was something I had been meaning to write for a while but was finally inspired by Adrian’s four day exploratory trip over the Australia Day long weekend. His trip to some remote wilderness canyons around Numietta Creek in the northern Wollemi — like many in this region — required access through private property.

For a huge distance north of Glen Davis, the western boundary of the Wollemi is bordered by private property. Even where there are fire trails, they often have locked gates and also traverse through private land. As in the case of the old Claustral access route, this can only be done with the consent of landowners.

While the number of canyoners heading into this area is still relatively small, it is growing, and the actions of each group can have profound impacts on how future canyoners are treated by local landholders. Given people in country areas like this generally know each other, one stuff up has the potential to have all of us locked out of huge areas. On the other side, concerted efforts to do the right thing will pay dividends, and confirm that canyoners are good people and can be trusted. It is something we all need to play a part in.

Interestingly, this situation is technically the same for some of our most popular canyons. As Peter Raines reminded me, access tracks to many of the Mt Wilson canyons also cross private property and some of these access tracks have had problems with owners at various times. Like Claustral, if these properties are sold, subdivided, or developed in future, these new owners could decide they do not want canyoners crossing their land.

Much of the exit track for Wollangambe 2 is on private property (pretty much once you’re on the basalt soil it is all private property). The Northern Fire Trail, which runs from the Cathedral of Ferns back to the Wollangambe 1 exit also crosses the bottom of about 10 private properties — including one belonging to someone that has previously tried stop walkers using this track. The Mill Road / Southern Fire Trail access to Bowens Creek North Canyon also crosses private property for several kilometres.

Recently, I received an enquiry from someone looking for contact details for certain properties in the Numietta area. This got me thinking a bit more about the appropriate ethics, and practicalities, of crossing private land. To get a better perspective on it I had a more substantial conversation with a local to clarify their feelings, and a few things came out of it:

1) Private landholders in these areas are genuinely concerned about our welfare. Over the years they have seen countless searches — and even body removals — involving outdoor enthusiasts. Given that, a strange car left in their paddock for several days is a great worry.

2) They have been burnt in the past by outdoor enthusiasts. In recent times the owners of The Nile received a commendation from several government agencies for their work in a rescue. Despite the seriousness of the incident, and their efforts, the “victims” apparently never even made contact to offer a simple thanks. You can imagine how that kind of behaviour went down!

3) Canyoners and bushwalkers need to remember that these properties are not only people’s businesses, they are also their homes. Understanding it is someone’s “backyard” (yes, it’s a *&%$#! big yard), means treating it as you expect your own yard to be treated. How many of us would like cars left in our yard, or strangers traipsing through without warning?

4) Many people who access these properties without consent are actually up to no good. Many of these landholders have problems with hoons illegally hunting or driving 4WD vehicles on their properties. Given that, any strangers are legitimately considered high risk.

5) There are a number of property owners who are already pissed off. The owners of Numietta do not want anyone going on their land, including canyoners. Other families have been previously burnt, including by having their contact details or property details published online (I won’t name them, because that will only inflame their concerns).

6) Even those who are happy to facilitate our enquiries are concerned that they will be overrun by people going canyoning every weekend. Their fear is that with growing numbers, sooner or later something will go amiss and spoil it for everyone.

So what can we, as canyoners and bushwalkers, do to protect access to these canyons and prevent a repeat of the Claustral access situation?

Personally, I think there are a couple of really simple rules worth following that will hopefully create positive relationships and confirm that we outdoorsy folk are actually good people who treat local landholders, and the bush, with respect:

1) If at all possible, plan your route so that it avoids private land. For the example of the canyons in the northern Wollemi, access the region from Glen Davis, or from the north via Dunns Swamp. Neither route requires you to cross private land. Going north in particular allows you to access vast swathes of the region via publicly owned State Forest.

2) If you must cross private land, make every effort to contact the landholders first to ask for permission. (If you can’t find a phone number, send a letter). If all else fails, make an approach directly by driving up and knocking on the door of the house.

3) Respect the wishes of locals. If you request access, and it is denied, don’t go sneaking in. It might get you through this trip, but it will make it so much harder for future groups. Make sure you have a fallback plan.

4) When you finish the trip, take a few minutes to drop in, let them know you have returned safely, and thank them for their hospitality. It doesn’t take much effort but it is appreciated. If they’re not home, put a note under their door. At least that saves them any worry.

5) Do not publish names, contact details, or other personal information relating to private landholders. If you want to visit an area, find someone who has been there and discretely ask for a contact.

6) Leave gates as you find them. If it was open, leave it that way, and if it was closed, re-close it.

7) Make sure you don’t leave any rubbish behind. Also take the effort to pick up any rubbish that you see, leaving the property cleaner than you found it.

8) Avoid making toilet stops on private property. Often the land will be part of their water supplies. If you absolutely must go, ensure you do it away from watercourses and bury your waste at least 15cms down (as per the Bushwalkers Code of Ethics).

9) Limit the noise of your group. Even loud voices can ruin the tranquility that many people living in these areas are seeking. Be even more aware if you are camping near private property, and planning to have a rowdy night around the camp fire!

10) Keep on existing tracks. Whether you are driving or walking, avoid making new tracks or eroding the sides of existing tracks. Causing visible damage to the land provides a perfectly valid reason for owners looking to close off access.

11) If you happen to find a locked gate open, that isn’t an excuse to drive further than you know you are permitted.

Ensuring future access for canyoners and bushwalkers requires us to all play our part. Being respectful and showing some simple consideration will see us all far more welcome when we head out to explore these amazing parts of the world. On the other side of the coin, failure to get this right will only mean we will all lose out.

I’ll finish with some feedback from Joe Mack — an old time SUBW member now living in the USA. He was planning an amateur geology field trip recently, and on his reconnaissance he discovered a great spot just below a dam on a farm where erosion had exposed the junction between two layers of rock. He went to the nearest house to ask permission, but found it was a B&B that was closed for the winter. That was the last he thought of it.

Then, after receiving my initial email discussing this issue, he realised he hadn’t made a good enough effort to ask permission and decided to have another go contacting the owners. He eventually tracked down the owner’s daughter-in-law and explained who they were, and why they wanted to go on the farm. It turned out that on the day they were planning the trip, the owner’s son-in-law was due to be there, working on a barn, so had they turned up unannounced they would certainly have been spotted, and likely kicked off the property. Instead they had the opportunity to explain why the areas was so significant, carry out some public education, and build good will for future trips by amateur geologists.

I was really encouraged by this summary of the situation from Joe:

“I’ve never had to deal with private land before. I’m mortified to think that except for your e-mail, I wouldn’t have done anything, risking getting us thrown off the land, giving me a black eye with the people in the club and creating ill-will with the locals. This has been an interesting positive lesson for me.”

In the end, it turned out he had actually been seen on the initial reconnaissance trip, but that by doing the right thing and making contact with the owner’s family, everything worked out fine.

As someone who has sailed a little close to the wind at times on access issues, these recent experiences have really cemented my views about the importance of doing the right thing when it comes to access. Sure, you might get away with it on this trip, but as a canyoner who passionately believes in ensuring my pursuit is sustainable — both environmentally and socially — doing the right thing by the humans we come across is also an absolute necessity to guarantee others can have the same experiences in future.
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Re: Accessing public places through private land

Postby colinm » Tue 26 Feb, 2013 9:39 pm

NPWS has set up a liason with the Crown Land Office (whatever they're called now) to avoid the isolation of public land - they would be the people to inform of these things. I had some success with crown road reserves around the Endrick river giving access to parts of the Budawangs, and I was told then that NPWS has set up the liason. If you have any specific locations, PM me and I'll help as far as I can.
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Re: Accessing public places through private land

Postby FatCanyoner » Tue 26 Feb, 2013 9:47 pm

colinm wrote:NPWS has set up a liason with the Crown Land Office (whatever they're called now) to avoid the isolation of public land


That's great news. Yesterday I read a letter to the Confederation of Bushwalking Clubs that suggested Fisheries were doing something to prevent the isolation of rivers / streams used by fishermen. That's great news if NPWS is definitely doing the same. I do fear that if there are to be 10,000 of these sales processed in four years, there will be very little detailed oversight, and many will slip through without us -- or the authorities -- even realising the significance.
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Re: Accessing public places through private land

Postby colinm » Tue 26 Feb, 2013 9:49 pm

One other thing I'd like to point out is that, while as a society we respect property rights, the state has a kind of eminent domain, and it is certainly possible for it to compulsorily acquire land on equitable terms in the public interest. I'm not advocating it as a first choice, but it is within the realms of possibility that a thoroughfare can be created over private land by state action. It's worth bearing this in mind, because it might be the best choice in some situations in future.
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Re: Accessing public places through private land

Postby taswegian » Wed 27 Feb, 2013 12:07 pm

One thing I don't think you mentioned?
When you contact someone its a good idea to give them your time frame, but then also contact them after exiting so they know you have left.
That also helps if some intruder decides on doing an undesirable thing to the land/ landowner at around the time of your visit, then your backside is covered.

Often I work in remote areas and go to great pains to ensure I contact as many land owners I deem necessary explaining my reason for being there, vehicle I'm in and my timeframe.
People have always appreciated that.
Security in those places is obviously a concern.
Another reason for going to greater lengths in such areas is the avoidance of being shot by a legitimate hunter on his land!
It's not a pleasant thing to be in the scrub and hear dogs then shots while you have no idea where they are and obviously they don't know you are there, or in some cases don't care.

As to compulsory acquisition - it has happened here, but probably rarely.
The track up Mt Roland and a track to a cave at Caveside are two I know of.
One up Mt Roland involved the front track which they acquired in parts.
The back track was re-routed when all of the above issues caused land owners to say enough! The track was put all onto Crown Land.

Having worked for land owners to buy back old road reserves one comes to appreciate the issues they legitimately face.
I often wonder what some of the people who think they have every right to use unalienated strips of Crown land or unmade road reserves would feel if they were in the adjoining land owners shoes.

Farm insurance is another issue also and poses other concerns. It starts to get messy if you tell insurers 'Oh and I have the odd walker wander across my property...'
I have to insure my farm against stray cattle wandering onto the road - not mine but someone else that perhaps have even strayed into my place then jumped the fence and got back onto the road.

You certainly need a cooperative landowner to make this work.
It is a complex issue and I don't blame landowners for flatly refusing entry.
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Re: Accessing public places through private land

Postby colinm » Wed 27 Feb, 2013 12:50 pm

taswegian wrote:Having worked for land owners to buy back old road reserves one comes to appreciate the issues they legitimately face. I often wonder what some of the people who think they have every right to use unalienated strips of Crown land or unmade road reserves would feel if they were in the adjoining land owners shoes.


Thing is they do have every right to use crown land and crown road reserves. That's what those things are for, they're public land reserved to be used by the public, much as the public roads used by farmers to get to their front gate are.

I don't know how someone whose land adjoins an unmade road over a crown road reserve might feel about it. Please enlighten me.

Colin.
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Re: Accessing public places through private land

Postby colinm » Wed 27 Feb, 2013 1:52 pm

I just spoke to NPWS (NSW) and was told that they now have a person in each region evaluating each road closure around a national park, that those Regional Road Closure Coordinators report to a central person in Dubbo.

I was also told that the policy is to object to any road closure which would impact access to an existing track, and I expect that such a closure wouldn't go ahead. I guess it's still possible that NPWS wouldn't object to a road closure which happened not to link to a track, so that could potentially still be a problem.

The Crown Lands people would also be interested to hear about any loss of amenity or access to public lands resulting from a road closure.

One problem is that Crown Lands only notifies local land owners, and publishes a notice of intent to close in the local newspapers. It's quite possible, therefore, that a road could be closed without any member of the public who might use that road from learning about it in time to object.
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Re: Accessing public places through private land

Postby taswegian » Wed 27 Feb, 2013 2:17 pm

Colin I am stating the case in Tasmania
I'm not claiming any knowledge of regulations in other states, but in Tasmania this a very complex issue, no doubt similar elsewhere.

I've been working in this area for 40 years.
The simple fact is (here) the common Joe Blow does not have any right of his own to use these strips just because they are Crown Land.

'Road Reserve' : that does not imply right of use.
That is land that was not granted to any person when the original Crown Land was Granted or Purchased, but set aside for a future use if and when required.
If that future use has not been taken up then it's status is unchanged but no right of use is attributed or given to that land.
Here, permission to use any Reserved Road section must be applied for and a licence granted. That is if you want to legitimise a right to pass and repass that land.
It is further complicated by existing tracks over Reserved Roads to a sahck/ hut or even a house.
If that access (over Crown Land, Reserve Road) is not maintained by any Authority then it is deemed as a private road and you need a licence or Right of Way to legitimately use that road which then bars unauthorised users. More complexities.

A public road to a farmers gate is (most likely) maintained by local Council/ Shire or if its a Government Road then by State Government.

Throw in land administered by Foresty Dept and that brings in another dimension.
Reserved Roads bordering other lands (Private Lands) are of same status. If unmade, then "technically/ legally" they are unalienated land waiting to be utilised for their original purpose.

A Road (here) needs to be 'Dedicated as Road' and that bestows a 'use' and an the Authority by way of who that land is vested in (Title Ownership).
Once 'dedicated' it becomes a public thoroughfare which the public can freely come and go on, within the bounds of the law.

Once, say up to 20-30 years ago, it was commonly accepted thing that an unmade 'Reserved Road' heading off through private land was 'open' for public use.
Nowadays the Government (here) has a different view.

And even if you have an assumed right or indeed a Licence to Use, then you need to be sure you are actually following the Road Reserve. Outside that and you are trespassing.
It would be your responsibility to know where those boundaries are and that requires surveyors to mark and not a layman reading information from a GPS etc.

Anyone wanting a Licence to use an unmade road reserve must have a valid reason, Council (Shire) is consulted, the adjoining land owners are consulted by The Crown, a fee is applicable, any fencing has to be agreed on, the road boundaries if not known must be surveyed.
I think that covers it - here in Tasmania

Its not simple and I'm not trying to be difficult or smart.
People most often are unaware of what the true status of these lands are and even of what lines and dotted lines and annotations mean on their Titles (Land ownership).

Running in roughshod or cold turkey to this whole area of access will only confound the best meaning person and probably put people offside.
Be informed and prepared. A good way to go.

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Re: Accessing public places through private land

Postby colinm » Wed 27 Feb, 2013 10:18 pm

I guess it varies by state. In NSW: "With the introduction of the Roads Act 1993 the distinction was removed and all Crown roads became public roads." per NSW LPMA. That includes reserved roads and quarter sessions roads, which may not have been formed.

Roads Act 1993 No 33 S5(1) (http://goo.gl/Uk5ZQ) "A member of the public is entitled, as of right, to pass along a public road (whether on foot, in a vehicle or otherwise) and to drive stock or other animals along the public road." The act also alludes to other, common law, rights which it does not extinguish.

I'd also like to know what the charge would be for walking on crown land ... trespass?
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Re: Accessing public places through private land

Postby taswegian » Thu 28 Feb, 2013 7:21 am

Colin is that reference to a 'public road'. I scanned that Act and it seems to reference roads as being constructed and not unused strips of land with no formation on them.

Straying onto any private land could be deemed as trespass if the owner seeks to go down that path.
That was my reference to trespass.

But here in Tassie it can be on Crown Land and is a very moot point with some in relation to protests we have had lately etc.
Back in the Franklin Dam Blockade days it was a time when you were not welcome and even evicted from some areas. That was serious stuff even on 'Public Roads'. I was a legitimate worker on those roads and was quizzed and had to produce my credentials.

Fatcanyoner details things at the top of page that are concerns.
Remember some landowners are there because they want escape from city life etc, (we have them on this forum), others are there to feed the likes of you and me.
Really needs an understanding of the issues rural workers have before embarking on this.
I have had whole standing (in the paddock) electric fences pinched in the night - reels, wire, droppers - the lot.
4 wheelers get driven out of peoples yards and off into the never never.
Recently a farm had machinery hoisted from the farm, others stock disappear in the night.
Gates left open can see herds of cattle where they shouldn't be, cows amongst the bulls which then interferes with milking regimes as cows become pregnant at wrong time, cows let into pastures that with right conditions cause bloat and then dead cows.

People really do need time to understand what makes up the management and running of farm life.
Would you want any Tom Dick or Harry wandering through your suburban block to access the golf course behind?

I have authority to enter any land but know where that would put me when dealing with the public and I seldom have recourse to go the next step.
Strength for this will come from a humble approach rather than an attitude of rights and authority etc.

I wish you all the best in your endeavours.
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Re: Accessing public places through private land

Postby colinm » Thu 28 Feb, 2013 12:44 pm

taswegian wrote:Colin is that reference to a 'public road'. I scanned that Act and it seems to reference roads as being constructed and not unused strips of land with no formation on them.
Straying onto any private land could be deemed as trespass if the owner seeks to go down that path.


It's a good question. Is a road reserve a reserve road? I don't honestly know. I know that 'unformed road' is common parlance for those spaces between parcels of land. I know that one can apply to enclose them, and use them for agriculture, and apply to have them incorporated into an adjoining parcel.

I don't see how entering or transiting crown land which isn't (legitimately) fenced or otherwise restricted could be a trespass. I know that there are several statutes which make things like 'trespass on railway property' a crime, and that leads me to suppose that common law trespass didn't apply to some crown lands.

Then, too, in NSW, there is a long history of 'selection' and 'squatting.' I can't find any generalised crime of trespass on un-enclosed crown land except related to dwelling or remaining upon it, or erecting structures or modifying it.
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Re: Accessing public places through private land

Postby Davo1 » Thu 28 Feb, 2013 1:37 pm

Colin,
Having been an owner of land with a paper road on it (in NSW)I can assure you they are not all for public access.
We paid a yearly sum to use that land as it were our own and we used it for livestock and cropping.
It was marked as a road on public topo maps and it was also marked on our title and to the best of my knowledge these details have never been changed on the maps even with subsequent purchase of the land.
Would have been interesting discussion if someone had tried to use it, as only external access was via private rights of way from both ends :-)
I have always found it pays to err on the side of caution as maps aren't always what they seem, especially when it comes to paper roads.

Richard,
I have seen some interesting cases with Crown Land roads/reserves over the past ten years in Tassie, especially in suburbia with the old dunny cart access lanes etc.
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Re: Accessing public places through private land

Postby colinm » Thu 28 Feb, 2013 1:39 pm

This might be useful in NSW ... http://goo.gl/C9fhp ... "Road means any land proclaimed, dedicated, resumed or otherwise provided as a public thoroughfare or way or any land defined, reserved or left as a road in any subdivision of lands." and "Where a road is lawfully inclosed with the lands of any person, those lands, but not the road, shall be deemed for the purposes of this Act to be the inclosed lands of the person." Interestingly, the Roads Act doesn't contain any definition of the word "road."

So that's the criminal equivalent to trespass, in NSW, "entering or remaining upon inclosed land" ... and it's clear that it doesn't apply to land reserved for roads.
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Re: Accessing public places through private land

Postby colinm » Thu 28 Feb, 2013 1:45 pm

Davo1 wrote:Colin,
Having been an owner of land with a paper road on it (in NSW)I can assure you they are not all for public access.
We paid a yearly sum to use that land as it were our own and we used it for livestock and cropping.


Yes, you can apply to enclose road reserves, and to use the land, as you say. Entering land which was enclosed, and which was being used (under license) for agricultural purposes would probably be a trespass and an offence under the inclosed lands act (sic.)

Davo1 wrote:It was marked as a road on public topo maps and it was also marked on our title and to the best of my knowledge these details have never been changed on the maps even with subsequent purchase of the land.


Yes, I wouldn't rely on a topo. I think I'd rely on the LPI/LPMA's cadastre *if* there were an issue, and then upon a registered surveyor's work.

Davo1 wrote:Would have been interesting discussion if someone had tried to use it, as only external access was via private rights of way from both ends :-)


That's interesting. There's a category for crown land with no connection to the external world ('sequestered land' or somesuch) and the title to such land isn't clear. Would have been interesting indeed.

Davo1 wrote:I have always found it pays to err on the side of caution as maps aren't always what they seem, especially when it comes to paper roads.


Sure. It's by no means straight-forward, which might explain why I've never met a lawyer who wasn't wealthy :)

It's probably worth mentioning, though, that while some people have a legitimate right to exclude the public from crown land, some others have (to my certain knowledge) relied upon the use of signs, bluster and illegally constructed fences to the same effect.
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Re: Accessing public places through private land

Postby yogibarnes » Sun 03 Mar, 2013 6:55 pm

I am not a lawyer but in a previous life I dealt with public land matters almost daily. It is a complex subject.

As I understand it, in NSW:

"reserved roads" are narrow strips of land (usually one chain wide, but not always) designed at the time of land subdivision (usually back in the dreamtime) which can be used as a thoroughfare. Cadastral maps will show them as parallel solid lines (surveyed both sides), parallel lines - one solid, one dashed (surveyed one side), or two parallel dashed lines (not surveyed and therefore of estimated position). I believe all "reserved roads" are available for use by the public unless otherwise noticed, usually by a managing authority (see below) but I do not have a legal opinion on this almost exclusive right.

If a neighbour leases a reserved road, usually from the Crown Lands Dept, and usually for grazing purposes, I would be surprised if the leased rights are exclusive to all others who may have a legitimate reason to use the reserved road as a thoroughfare. I believe that under these circumstances, the lessee would need to ensure fencing, gates etc are not to obstruct the thoroughfare once a blockage become apparent (often the fences stay because noone has had a need for a gate for example).

A "road" (an engineered thoroughfare of variable standard - track, formed, gravelled, highway etc) i.e. an asset for which someone is responsible for maintenance (local landholder, Shire Council, State Govt agency etc). Often, but not always, it will be placed upon the "reserved road" set aside for that purpose. The Crown Lands Dept hands over the "road" to the nominated authority who then has management rights over both the road and the land under it. Usually such a handover would be on condition that the road would remain a public thoroughfare.

Getting back to the original issue, I believe bushwalkers for example are entitled to traverse a "reserved road", whether a "road" exists on it or not, to gain access to another landholding, usually in this case public lands. However, I could be proved wrong on this legally, and also I am sure there will be an exception (there always is).

In any case, a prospective traveller would need to be sure that the map being used is up to date, and navigation is good enough to stay within the confines of the "reserved road".

Hope this helps.
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Re: Accessing public places through private land

Postby Davo1 » Mon 04 Mar, 2013 6:56 am

[quote="yogibarnes"]
Usually such a handover would be on condition that the road would remain a public thoroughfare.[quote]

One of the issues is that a lot of those so called reserved roads are paper only as you mentioned , something dreamed up a very long time ago and reserved for a "just in case" instance for a possibility of use some time in the future.
Many have never been available to the public as a thoroufare in the first place and many never will be.
Have a look at Western NSW in the broadacre cropping areas, they are everywhere and it really makes you wonder what someone was thinking way back then?
I have seen them in the Tamworth area where to follow the so called reserved road you have to scale vertical cliffs of enormous height, places that would be uneconomical to impliment, some look like they have been implimented on paper by office people that have never seen the light of day.
I'm sure you can find many instances of these yourself.

I suppose what I am trying to say is, that they are not all the same, some will have access and some won't.
Don't take it as a God given right that they are all public thoroughfares and ask first.
It may save embarressment down the track :)
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Re: Accessing public places through private land

Postby colinm » Mon 04 Mar, 2013 10:51 am

Davo1 wrote:I suppose what I am trying to say is, that they are not all the same, some will have access and some won't.
Don't take it as a God given right that they are all public thoroughfares and ask first.
It may save embarressment down the track :)


Bit of confusion between the word 'thoroughfare' and the word 'road.' A thoroughfare is something people travel over, and it might or might not be a road. In urban areas, people cut across car parks, for example, making a thoroughfare even though it's not a road. Vacant lots can have thoroughfares through them.

In NSW, at least, a thoroughfare is something people walk (or drive) over whether or not they have a right to, a (public) road is something people have a right to walk (or drive over) whether or not they do :) Road reserves are public roads.

The question of *access* is another matter. One might not be able to access a road because someone's put a fence across it. I know that erecting an obstruction to a road can sometimes be an offence, and sometimes not. The act of putting up a fence might make land into 'inclosed' land, but it also might not.

yogibarnes wrote:One of the issues is that a lot of those so called reserved roads are paper only as you mentioned , something dreamed up a very long time ago and reserved for a "just in case" instance for a possibility of use some time in the future.


Yes, they were reserved a long time ago, but they remain.

yogibarnes wrote:Many have never been available to the public as a thoroufare in the first place and many never will be.
Have a look at Western NSW in the broadacre cropping areas, they are everywhere and it really makes you wonder what someone was thinking way back then?


Any road in NSW is available to the public as a thoroughfare by law. Whether as a matter of practice anyone would want to use it as a thoroughfare is a different matter.

yogibarnes wrote:I have seen them in the Tamworth area where to follow the so called reserved road you have to scale vertical cliffs of enormous height, places that would be uneconomical to impliment, some look like they have been implimented on paper by office people that have never seen the light of day.


Undoubtedly there are road reserves which could never be economically formed as roads one could drive along. Thing is, that doesn't make them any the less roads.

I guess the relevance of all this to fatcanyoner's original point is that if the topo shows a reserve road, and the LPI cadastre also shows a reserve road, then there might well be a public right of access over that road into the areas he wishes to access. It would be worth studying the topo, consulting the LPI for any roads which might be turned into thoroughfares for canyoners.

Additionally, it is open to the Minister to create an easement for access to a parcel of land which is land-locked, and that can go through private land. It's available when public land is unable to be accessed (you'd be looking for Crown Lands Act 1989 No 6 Section 56, I think.) Ministers are wary of doing this, I'm sure, but it is within their power.

I don't disagree with any of the positive suggestions given, that people using NPs should be considerate and respect their neighbours. I think, though, that civility is (so to speak) a two-way street :)
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Re: Accessing public places through private land

Postby FatCanyoner » Mon 04 Mar, 2013 6:30 pm

Wow, some serious food for thought in some of these posts. That said, these kinds of issues seem to bring out the bush lawyer in all of us. Given I'm not an actual lawyer, my take is to err on the side of caution. As a first step, do things the polite way. If that fails, look for other avenues. I'd say going through gates on something you think is an unformed road based purely on the topo map is probably a last resort, and one to do only when all other avenues for gaining access to an area have failed.
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