Hunting in some NSW National Parks

[Nuts]

I believe you linked this earlier Tony?, the anecdotal from spotlighting off public roads was on a huge scale, i'd hazard a guess in the tens of thousands p/a NSW wide.. the pelts were $40-50 ea for some time.. (there's no substitute for money as a motivation) and also over many years.

OK..shot, trapped, fumigated, hounded, poisoned and homes destroyed would no doubt be more efficient than shot alone.

[Nuts]

I agree foxes are beautiful. Its a shame we had to do what we had to do, but the lively hood of our nesting sea turtles along our coast was more important and there major threat had to be removed. During our record breaking floods late January, I witnessed a fox swimming across the swollen Burnet River in waters that looked like rapids. A apx 8 years ago I helped patrol our nesting beaches and documented the destruction along our coast to our nesting turtles and Foxes was a very big threat at the time.

Nuts, I to used to be a hunter.

Mr Limpis, his a legend and certainly knows a few things about turtles, I work with Col Limpis for 3 months per year with his Turtle Research team for the past 13 years as a volunteer Turtle Researcher.

I like this post Phil, giving up your personal experience and insight.
I haven't met Col, he would recruit from the southern states as well, I know a lot of people jumped at the chance to join his program.

[Tony]

I believe you linked this earlier Tony?, the anecdotal from spotlighting off public roads was on a huge scale, i'd hazard a guess in the tens of thousands NSW wide.. the pelts were $40-50 ea for some time.. (there's no substitute for money as a motivation) and also over many years.

OK..shot, trapped, fumigated, hounded, poisoned and homes destroyed would no doubt be more efficient than shot alone.

Hi Nuts,

Yes I did link the document earlier, there is a lot of evidence that invasive animal bounty schemes do not work, they are just a way of distributing political bribe money in rural communities.

This is an interesting news paper article on the latest Victorian Fox Bounty Scheme VICTORIA'S fox bounty is set to fail, waste money and may worsen feral animal problems.

Tony

[forest]

Wow I'm not going to argue either way but 117,000 foxes is a lot of removed foxes.
Here we are trashing the game council on there what - 14,000 ferals in a year removed.
I'd guess in some VIC area's the fox numbers have dropped at lot from that kind of pressure.
The sheep farmers would be happy to see that many gone.

[Tony]

Wow I'm not going to argue either way but 117,000 foxes is a lot of removed foxes.
Here we are trashing the game council on there what - 14,000 ferals in a year removed.
I'd guess in some VIC area's the fox numbers have dropped at lot from that kind of pressure.
The sheep farmers would be happy to see that many gone.

Hi Forest,

If you take what happened on Phillip Island, 117,000 foxes removed does not mean the fox population has dropped by 117,000 foxes, so in the end there is probably no net gain for farmers.

Tony

[Hallu]

Yeah stop posting big irrelevant numbers, what matters is if it made a dent on the overall feral population and if it's gonna have a long term effect.

[ULWalkingPhil]

After many years of fox baiting, there's still the occasional fox predation of a Sea Turtle Nests, It is rare though. but still happens. There not easy to totally eliminate the foxes, the baiting still continues, after many years..

[maddog]

As the fox limits the rabbit, the dingo (and feral dog) limits the fox.

In a study of dingos and mammal communities in an arid areas of western NSW, it was found that in the absence of dingos kangaroos and foxes were more abundant, while rabbits and a hopping mouse were less so. Another earlier study, but this time in the forested areas of eastern NSW, found a similar relationship between dingo and fox numbers, but also extended some credit for this to the feral dog.

Letnic M & Koch F. 2010. Are dingos a trophic regulator arid Australia? A comparison of mammal communities on either side of the dingo fence, Austal Ecology, 35, 167-175

Johnson C & VanDerWal J. 2009. Evidence that dingoes limit abundance of a mesopredator in eastern Australian forests. Journal of Applied Ecology, 46, 641-646

Similar ideas are also discussed here:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-28/d ... ls/4286500

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/ding ... -wildlife/

Depending on the circumstances, both the fox and the dog may play a role suppressing other pests. Culling from the Game-Council's list, but without any consideration of need, doesn't make much sense. Not if the aim is conservation.

Cheers

[maddog]

NSW Farmers say shooting won't help dog problem:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-12/d ... rs/4566864

[Nuts]

After many years of fox baiting, there's still the occasional fox predation of a Sea Turtle Nests, It is rare though. but still happens. There not easy to totally eliminate the foxes, the baiting still continues, after many years..

Foxes will most likely never be 'eliminated' they will just continue to migrate into the area Phil. The best that can be achieved is probably what you have. The program will continue to be at the mercy of funding a baiting program. Pretty tenuous existence for the poor turtles.

[Rob A]

They can restrict foxes out of an area overnight. http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3708340.htm

[Overlandman]

From ABC News

There are concerns that motorists on the New South Wales south coast could be in the firing line under the State Government's plan to allow hunting in national parks.

The Greens have obtained a leaked document showing an area of the South East Forests National Park which straddles the Princes Highway has been designated "zone C".

This would mean unsupervised hunting would be allowed in that part of the park.

In the risk assessment document, parks workers raise concerns that the two-kilometre stretch of highway included within the zone is used daily by school buses, locals, tourists and tradespeople.

Greens MP David Shoebridge says the area lies just five kilometres north of the town of Merimbula.

"All the hunting was meant to be away from residential areas and the unsupervised parts, these so-called remote zone C parts of the national parks, were meant to be in the deepest, darkest parts of New South Wales," Mr Shoebridge said.

"But here we've got it right next to a township, right next to the busiest arterial road on the south coast which thousands of holiday makers and school kids use on a daily basis.

The document says park workers are also concerned about a mentally ill local resident who "tends to appear out of the bush without warning".

"The dangers are obvious to everyone apart from the Government," Mr Shoebridge said.

The Government is yet to finalise the plans, with Premier Barry O'Farrell promising nothing will happen until a review of the NSW Game Council is completed.

A spokesman for Environment Minister Robyn Parker says the Government has made it clear that safety is paramount.

He says final approval for any zoning arrangements will not be given until the risk assessment process is completed

[maddog]

More of the same on the South East Forests National Park zone C, but with leaked documents and a map.

Whistleblower reveals danger to public of South East Parks hunting:

http://davidshoebridge.org.au/2013/03/1 ... s-hunting/

Cheers

[maddog]

Steve Dunn, the senior public servant appointed by Premier O'Farrell to review the governance of the Game-Council, 'featured regularly in Eddie Obeid's secret diaries'. The SMH reports:

Mr Dunn, attended meetings with Mr Dalah and planning minister Tony Kelly in an attempt to develop a huge marina in picturesque Elizabeth Bay.
...
In August 2009 ports and waterways minister Joe Tripodi announced that Joe Elias' $2 company All Occasion Cruises had won the tender to build an 18-berth marina and a function centre and cafe at Blackwattle Bay, near the fish market.
It was Mr Obeid's son Eddie jnr who introduced his friend Joe Elias, who ran a floating male strip club, to Mr Lennox, a former government bureaucrat who became the project manager for the bid.
Although an external panel recommended a two-stage tender process, Maritime's Mr Dunn dismissed all other bidders after the first stage and declared All Occasion Cruises the winner.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/revealed-eddi ... z2NXoewp00

[wayno]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8433027 ... was-a-deer

Henry Worsp always believed he was a safe and conscientious hunter - until he mistook his mate for a deer and shot him.

Worsp, an outdoor safety manager and a hunter for 17 years, told an inquest into the death of his close friend James Dodds that he knew the seven basic safety rules of hunting.

[Tony]

Steve Dunn, the senior public servant appointed by Premier O'Farrell to review the governance of the Game-Council, 'featured regularly in Eddie Obeid's secret diaries'. The SMH reports:

Mr Dunn, attended meetings with Mr Dalah and planning minister Tony Kelly in an attempt to develop a huge marina in picturesque Elizabeth Bay.
...
In August 2009 ports and waterways minister Joe Tripodi announced that Joe Elias' $2 company All Occasion Cruises had won the tender to build an 18-berth marina and a function centre and cafe at Blackwattle Bay, near the fish market.
It was Mr Obeid's son Eddie jnr who introduced his friend Joe Elias, who ran a floating male strip club, to Mr Lennox, a former government bureaucrat who became the project manager for the bid.
Although an external panel recommended a two-stage tender process, Maritime's Mr Dunn dismissed all other bidders after the first stage and declared All Occasion Cruises the winner.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/revealed-eddi ... z2NXoewp00

Thanks for that info maddog, what worries me about the Game Council review is that politicians never call an review or enquiry unless they know what the outcome is going to be.

Tony

[maddog]

Park hunt bags O'Farrell an F (from the NCC):

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/park-hunt-bag ... 2g8ya.html

Robyn Parker's response to the environmental report card assessment (but she does not directly mention the Game Council's hunting in NPs initiative in her Governments defence):

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/robyn-parkers ... z2NpsN7WiC

[maddog]

The news from Bega:

Anti-hunting rally's message heard loud and clear:

http://www.begadistrictnews.com.au/stor ... ar/?cs=509

Anti-hunting campaign starts in Bega:

http://www.begadistrictnews.com.au/stor ... ga/?cs=509

[colinm]

Permitting hunting in National Parks gives a whole new meaning to "Tourist Season."

[wildwalks]

Permitting hunting in National Parks gives a whole new meaning to "Tourist Season."

LOL

[colinm]

Soon, hunters won't be limited to accidentally shooting mates ... http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-25/m ... ip/4592320

[Rob A]

This thread has got as stupid as serving up the 2010 image of the hunter in Sieversdorf, Germany that the ABC has captioned for colins reference.

[colinm]

I'm tempted to quote Homer Simpson and say "Stupid, like a fox!" but someone might take a pot shot.

Thing is, the above is going to happen to a non-combatant sooner or later. Imagine the backlash.

[Rob A]

I am sure you can convince me that a drunk in Quirindi discharging his firearm and shooting his mate has something to do with hunting in National Parks.

Screen shot 2013-03-27 at 10.10.38 PM.png (201.85 KiB) Viewed 17234 times

Heres another of Patricks images for you to be going on with. Im sure it will lend substance to any easter arguments.

Patrick Pleul

Corbis-42-44778102.jpg (47.12 KiB) Viewed 17234 times

[colinm]

I am sure you can convince me that a drunk in Quirindi discharging his firearm and shooting his mate has something to do with hunting in National Parks.

I'll give it my best shot.

1) firearms are inherently dangerous when discharged.
2) the proximity of humans when firearms are discharged makes them dangerous to those humans.
3) people in national parks (who are not themselves in possession of firearms, or aware of the proximity of firearms) are imperilled by discharged firearms in those national parks.
4) if a person with a gun can't even stop himself winging his mate, I see no reason to suppose he's going to be any better at not shooting me.

Now: you have a go at convincing me that shooters in national parks will never be drunk, and will never discharge their guns in a manner which places me at risk.

For extra credit, try convincing me that's a risk I ought to be prepared to take.

[Rob A]

Its called separation.
Like racing V8s. You dont do it on the street and you dont let anyone picnic on the track.
Ban recreational hunting, Im all for that. Keep it to targets and skeets on the rifle range or whatever.
If you dont ban it what makes you think you as a bushwalker are more entitled to land tracts than any other user group.

Back to your article, its about alcahol. Sort that one and you are streets ahead.

[colinm]

Its called separation.
Like racing V8s. You dont do it on the street and you dont let anyone picnic on the track.

I'm all for separation. Keep hunters out of National Parks.

Ban recreational hunting, Im all for that. Keep it to targets and skeets on the rifle range or whatever.
If you dont ban it what makes you think you as a bushwalker are more entitled to land tracts than any other user group.

Just existing convention and long usage.

The national parks in NSW, many of them, are formed from land bought and donated by people. The people who donated that land didn't do it for the benefit of hunters, but for the more conventional uses.

What make me think that as a bushwalker I'm more entitled to walk the land than someone else is to hunt it? Mainly the wording of the dedications as to purposes *specifically* made by the donors of the land which specify uses like bushwalking, and do not comprehend uses like hunting.

Back to your article, its about alcahol. Sort that one and you are streets ahead.

No, it's about drunks who are also hunters.

[colinm]

Hunters are not all criminals, but the new legislation aids criminal hunters.

People in support of hunting in National Parks are quick to distinguish themselves from 'poachers,' who they define as people hunting illegally. Whilst I am certain that some (if not most) registered and honourable hunters are different from people who hunt criminally, nonetheless their National Park hunting agenda must inevitably benefit criminals too.

At the moment possessing, discharging and hunting with a firearm in a NP are crimes with pretty severe penalties. The hunt-anywhere proponents have successfully reduced those penalties and replaced them with a lesser crime like 'hunting without a license,' which carries less of a penalty, and will be less severely enforced (since they could argue, successfully, that the act of hunting in a NP has been accepted by the population.)

Consider this: the likelihood that a person will commit a crime is a function of two factors, being (a) the severity of sentence if caught, (b) the offender's assessment of their probability of being caught.

No matter how severe the sentence, if people believe they won't be caught, some will commit offences.

If you see someone hunting in a NP, or hear a weapon discharge, you currently know for a *fact* that a crime is being committed. The probability of a criminal hunter being caught is therefore relatively high, because they are subject to scrutiny. Once the NP hunting regime is in place, anyone wanting to 'poach' (ie: hunt without a license) or to behave recklessly (ie, eg: get pissed as and start spraying ordnance around) is *far* less likely to be investigated, scrutinised, or brought to justice, simply because they won't be as visible.

By creating a category of (so called) legitimate hunters, you inevitably enable and encourage illegitimate hunters. Even if there is a difference in kind between these two categories, National Park hunting necessarily facilitates gun-related crime and violence.

[forest]

By creating a category of (so called) legitimate hunters, you inevitably enable and encourage illegitimate hunters. Even if there is a difference in kind between these two categories, it necessarily facilitates gun-related crime and violence.

I think beating the "gun related crime and violence" batton is a bit of a stretch. Let's keep that one reserved for the streets of western Sydney eh.......
It would be a epic *&%$#! up if a hunter shot another person, regardless of the circumstances though it would still be an accident. (Or so I would think). Let's hope that doesn't happen.
"crime and violence"
To me that sentance leans more towards hooded vilan's storming your house at night wielding guns shooting people.

I fear this thread has stooped to a more "anti guns / hunting" topic.
Have fun.

[colinm]

I think beating the "gun related crime and violence" batton is a bit of a stretch. Let's keep that one reserved for the streets of western Sydney eh.

There are degrees of criminal culpability: negligence, recklessness and malice.

The idiot who shot his mate recently was reckless. The hoons spraying uzi fire around Punchbowl are malicious. Your hypothetical underskilled hunter may be merely negligent (like the duck hunter of recent reference.)

They're all still (hypothetically) criminals, and their crimes would be of a violent nature. So: Not a stretch, no.

I fear this thread has stooped to a more "anti guns / hunting" topic.

Oh, no, I *love* guns. Never been hunting, but I have no personal aversion to it in principle. All I object to is the use of National Parks for hunting, as I believe it's an inappropriate use of the space, it exposes people to avoidable and unnecessary risk of severe injury and death for absolutely no gain or legitimate purpose. That's all, it's also enough.