Risk management gone mad?

[alanoutgear]

I've just come back from a couple of months in WA. We didn't do any of the long walks, but we did do parts of the Bibblemun and Cape to Cape tracks among others. I couldn't get over the signs placed anywhere you go access to "the bush" or any other place outside. While I see the value in the "Cliff Risk Area" signs where there were cliffs, I found the "Beach Risk Area", "River risk Area" signs a bit over the top advising about the obvious. The beach risk area signs warned beachgoers of water and waves.

At Canal Rocks there's a boardwalk to protect the fragile environment, and I could not believe the "Boardwalk Risk Area" sign. There should have been a "Warning Sign Risk Area" sign, and it would warn readers that they risked being bombarded by signs stating the obvious - that if you get too close to a cliff you might fall off, that you can drown in the ocean, and boardwalks can be dangerous places. It was hard to take a photo without a warning sign in it.

[Clusterpod]

After the deaths of several tourists in the water, fisherman washed off rocks and schoolkids crushed under a collapsing cliff, I think the councils here in WA quite like the ease with which hideously ugly signs can absolve them of portions of the responsibility an increasingly litigious society has forced upon them.

You wouldn't believe how often councils are sued here after people trip on footpaths. Only a few years ago, a man sued a local council after being dumped by a wave while body surfing and injuring himself.

[roysta]

You can't blame the councils. There are simply so many brainless jerks out there that don't get the obvious.
Why wouldn't they try to drive home the message and at the same time endeavour to absolve themselves of the obvious?

[Strider]

Any lawyers in here? The case of Vairy v Wyong Shire Council (2005) springs to mind.

"we do not think it could be seriously suggested that a shire should erect a multiplicity of signs in the vicinity of beaches saying 'swimming can be dangerous' "

[creeping_moses]

The way I see it is that councils have no way to protect themselves other than via endless signs, warnings and recommendations if not regulatory measures as to how we are to behave. If the courts take up a personal protectionist interpretation to the law we end up limiting our personal liberties through regulation to avoid the lawsuits. This recent article from the Fraser Coast Chronicle (a story I heard on the ABC) came to mind. I have seen the signs near the dune in question and they are plain as day: running on the dunes may equal death. Two obvious signs apparently are not enough for the nearly score people who have been severely injured or killed in the last 17 years... The problem is all across the country I'm afraid, and is seemingly exacerbated by tourists if this example is anything to go by.

http://www.frasercoastchronicle.com.au/ ... y/1853674/

[Strider]

The way I see it is that councils have no way to protect themselves other than via endless signs, warnings and recommendations if not regulatory measures as to how we are to behave.

Actually they do.

http://www.qmtlaw.com.au/media/Wyong%20 ... 0Vairy.pdf

[creeping_moses]

That case is certainly one in the right direction, Strider!

It does say in the opening section that:

The New South Wales Court of Appeal exhibits use of common sense regarding personal injuries litigation where the risk of injury is obvious to the reasonable person. In the past, the approach taken by the courts has not been so defendant savvy and some sympathy has been apparent for the injured party who risked their life, in circumstances where it was obvious that they could be badly injured.

I believe we still see far too much 'apparent sympathy' for people who risk their body or lives when its obvious they shouldn't. Great that that precedent now exists in such a high court of NSW, though. These cases tend to be far to easy for lawyers to cleverly outline why their cases should be distinguished between prior precedents according to often minor factual occurrences.

[Hallu]

A sign at the ENTRY of the park, on info panels, should be enough, to spare the rest of the park from hideous signs. A bill should be passed for this. The people who die usually ignore the signs anyway. A popular place to ignore them is at Wilsons Prom', with countless tourists exploring slippery rocks next to treacherous waves zones, such as Squeaky Beach, where people have died in the past (with even a bench dedicated to a couple of them, and a before/after shot of a more recent death on a sign).

[wayno]

just stick a sign at all the ports and borders saying, "living can be dangerous, build a bridge and get over it"

[wayno]

one of the major glaciers on the west coast has signs saying "danger do not proceeed past this point" etc, which various people do. one chap was hit by a bit of ice falling off the glacier.. well actually the piece of ice was a few hundred tonnes. a rather regular occurence for the glacier...

[Strider]

just stick a sign at all the ports and borders saying, "living can be dangerous, build a bridge and get over it"

Hospital delivery rooms would be my pick of location!

[wayno]

baby books....

[tom_brennan]

WA - state of danger!
I've been there roadtripping twice, and both times amused myself taking photos of all the different risks we were exposing ourselves to.

You can get some idea from our 2010 trip at https://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22! ... m&tbm=isch

Funny thing is that they're mostly different to the ones from our 2005 trip http://ozultimate.com/tom/photos/200504 ... hotos2.htm (half way down the page)

And I missed a few (like Tree Climbing Risk Area)!

[Clusterpod]

...and yet people keep dying.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-06/p ... ot/4672730

I'm still far more scared of 4WD'ers than anything short of a king brown in my sleeping bag.

DANGER!

CUBS THAT SAW TOO MANY ADS OF OFF-ROAD VEHICLE HURTLING THROUGH SCRUB AND ACROSS WATERCOURSES IN THIS AREA!

THEY HAVE EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS TO ALL OFF-ROAD AREAS!

USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!

or some such.

[Hallu]

Lifebelts and buoyancy devices were placed at the site but they have been repeatedly vandalised.

Who the *&%$#! would be stupid enough to vandalise such things ? I mean how low do you have to descend on the evolutionary ladder to resort to such behavior ?

[wayno]

some people are primal... they don't care

[norts]

Bogans are everywhere. Perfect example on Sunday morning. Pulled up at the carpark at Waldheim, next thing a WRX camp roaring up Connell Ave, and then proceeded to do some circle work before parking. One of our party reported him to Rangers, hopefully he( he was by himself so I dont know who he was trying to impress) was asked to leave.

Roger

[oyster_07]

Up in the NT the are signs that state that crocodile attacks can be fatal. These are in addition to the signs that warn crocodiles may be in the area.

Sometimes I feel we are legislating Darwin's selection theory out of validity.

[Taurë-rana]

We travelled round Australia over 20 years ago and commented on it then - there were waterfalls in Queensland that were fenced off to swimming and just to getting close to look because people had jumped off them and died or broken their backs. Warning signs at places like Lake Wabby referred to by creeping_moses are perhaps needed as the danger is not quite so obvious, but the man being able to successfully sue the government is ludicrous.
I also think that the warning signs at the ends of the glaciers are a good idea for the same reason - they look stable and most people would probably think it safe to walk right up to them. We did when there were no signs about 30 years ago.
But, I agree that there are way to many unnecessary signs. We couldn't get over one on a tank of rain water in a Vic national park warning of the dangers of drinking rain water. Scary stuff!
I wonder if part of the problem is that so many tourists come from cities and just have no idea?

[wayno]

the galciers sign and rope are over 100m from the glaciers, . overkill... some people want to get closer than that....

[michael_p]

This topic has come up before: http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4028. This earlier thread is worth a read as well.

[Davo1]

Signs..... get over it, it’s probably going to get worse .
They are not there for the likes of seasoned bushwalkers, yes we have to abide by them but in the majority of cases they are aimed at casual holiday maker /visitor that really don’t have a clue.
I agree with them, reason being I don’t like paying for someone else’s mistake which is a result of sheer stupidity. I hear people say, she’ll be right; Councils have insurance to cover being sued. Who pays the Council funds to cover the insurance, as ratepayers we do. I even heard a person once say, well that doesn’t affect me I don’t pay rates - what a load of baloney, if he doesn’t pay rates I bet he pays rent, and guess who pays on his behalf, the landlord of course, (up goes the rent) so one way or another it is us that pays, all of us, we cannot escape it.
I’ll lay odds it’s not only the Councils insurance policy affected by the claims either because you can be rest assured that the Insurance companies will up all clients costs if they have a loss, it may only be small but I’ll bet it’s done.
People used to take responsibility for their own actions, that went out the window as soon as those in the legal profession started advertising on TV and radio, the no win no pay scenario has created a monster.
Tasmania has escaped this madness to a degree, but the signs (sri) are there that it’s beginning to catch up. The only saving grace here is that we can access places that Councils don’t really care about (until something that affects them occurs). In parts of the big isle they would be just fenced off with a NO ACCESS sign.
Bogans , well they are another story and are everywhere, was only talking about that yesterday with some people from QLD and NSW. They are in the same league as those that crap in public places leaving their mess for the world to see. Hmmm better stop before this gets out of hand and everyone says I’m just a cranky old fool.
Yep, signs, they are not pretty, but you are just going to have to learn to live with them.

[wander]

It's kinda weird, you will find new signs and such and then you find things like the stairs to the beach at South Cape Bay that have been in a deplorable condition for years and should have been replaced years ago. And it would not be an expensive job to replace. Or the toilet at Granite Beach. Surely it is better to fix broken stuff that put up a sign (not that even that has been done) that says there is a risk of the obvious? It seems the priorities out of whack.

The best has to be the signs throughout Tas Parks that warn the water has not been tested or certified to be safe for humans. But for many, many people the water will be the cleanest they will ever drink in their lives.

[Graham51]

There are lots of places that should have signs that don't. Some of those pit toilets on the South Coast Track should have "Falling in the Poo Hole Risk!" for example. And Moraine A should have a sign that says "Aching Legs Risk!" I just don't understand why it hasn't already been done.

[Son of a Beach]

When the sputniks are early full they should have a "Splashback risk!" sign.

But more seriously, it's very disappointing to see all the tasteful brown and white track and feature signs in Tasmanian parks replaced by garish blue and white. I can understand why they've done it, but I strongly disagree with it.

[Happy Pirate]

Damn! They're right! We've all been far too negligent of public safety on this forum. All these Gung-Ho! attitudes and do-what-thou-willst craziness. Its all got to stop!

I will change my signature to reflect the coming dawn of risk management and public safety awareness.
Be Safe!!!
Steve
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Bushwalking is a potentially dangerous activity which may expose you to hazards and risks that could lead to injury, illness or death or to loss of or damage to your property...or the feeling that you're better off without property at all. Ensure you are properly prepared before embarking on any bushwalk... Actually best to just not go at all.
Typing on bushwalking forums is a potentially dangerous activity which may expose you to hazards and risks that could lead to RSI, sore fingers, screen irradiation and the publication of unchecked opinions.
Replying to typing on bushwalking forums is a potentially dangerous activity which may expose you to hazards and risks that could lead to unsolicited engagement with strangers, conflict of opinions and general exposure to dangerous levels of hilarity.
You have been warned you devil-may-care fool!!!
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[quicky]

Damn! They're right! We've all been far too negligent of public safety on this forum. All these Gung-Ho! attitudes and do-what-thou-willst craziness. Its all got to stop!

I will change my signature to reflect the coming dawn of risk management and public safety awareness.
Be Safe!!!
Steve
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bushwalking is a potentially dangerous activity which may expose you to hazards and risks that could lead to injury, illness or death or to loss of or damage to your property...or the feeling that you're better off without property at all. Ensure you are properly prepared before embarking on any bushwalk... Actually best to just not go at all.
Typing on bushwalking forums is a potentially dangerous activity which may expose you to hazards and risks that could lead to RSI, sore fingers, screen irradiation and the publication of unchecked opinions.
Replying to typing on bushwalking forums is a potentially dangerous activity which may expose you to hazards and risks that could lead to unsolicited engagement with strangers, conflict of opinions and general exposure to dangerous levels of hilarity.
You have been warned you devil-may-care fool!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bwahahaha

Each of those statements needs to end with, for example "Typing on bushwalking forums is a potentially dangerous activity which may expose you to hazards and risks that could lead to RSI, sore fingers, screen irradiation, the publication of unchecked opinions AND DEATH!"

[Happy Pirate]

Damn! They're right! We've all been far too negligent of public safety on this forum. All these Gung-Ho! attitudes and do-what-thou-willst craziness. Its all got to stop!

I will change my signature to reflect the coming dawn of risk management and public safety awareness.
Be Safe!!!
Steve
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bushwalking is a potentially dangerous activity which may expose you to hazards and risks that could lead to injury, illness or death or to loss of or damage to your property...or the feeling that you're better off without property at all. Ensure you are properly prepared before embarking on any bushwalk... Actually best to just not go at all.
Typing on bushwalking forums is a potentially dangerous activity which may expose you to hazards and risks that could lead to RSI, sore fingers, screen irradiation and the publication of unchecked opinions.
Replying to typing on bushwalking forums is a potentially dangerous activity which may expose you to hazards and risks that could lead to unsolicited engagement with strangers, conflict of opinions and general exposure to dangerous levels of hilarity.
You have been warned you devil-may-care fool!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bwahahaha

Each of those statements needs to end with, for example "Typing on bushwalking forums is a potentially dangerous activity which may expose you to hazards and risks that could lead to RSI, sore fingers, screen irradiation, the publication of unchecked opinions AND DEATH!"

Damnit!!! I'm risking my LIFE just replying to you!!!!

Steve H

Whew... made i....

[north-north-west]

This about sums up my attitude to such signs:

Although the Tassie version gets it right, especially the last line:

[wayno]

falling tree limbs? hell you better put that warning in the yard of every house with a tall tree in it..... how did we ever survive before signs like these???