The Great North Walk - Hornsby Rifle Range

[Rob Gosford]

heading north, any risk in staying on the Great North Walk to the west of Hornsby Rifle Range OR should i exit onto the longer safer Alternative Route around the eastern side of the Range ? The Alternate Route exits off the GNW at Fishponds Lookout. I don't feel like getting a bullet thru the head lol but then again, i don't feel like going around the longer way.

Anyone know ? thanks.....

[wombat4787]

Hi Rob,

I've walked past the rifle range numerous times without incident. They don't seem to start shooting until around 9 am on Saturday. I have to admit I'm not keen on going past the range, but it's preferable to people doing "feral reductions" in the park. I'd be surprise if anyone has ever had problems.

Peter

[forest]

The range is on the other side of the hill. Bullets don't go round corners. End of story.
No issues at all. Its not like the walking track crosses the firing line.

Most of the time the gunfire you might hear is the pistol club just down the rd.

[Bluegum Mic]

Ive walked all trails in the area and although currently living interstate I normally start my early saturday walk right beside it. Ive never had an issue. Sure you can hear it but I think the signs are more to cover the backsides vs a real issue. Id just take the normal GNW route. That section fish ponds to the old military steele bridge is some of my favorite walking in the area.

[Turfa]

The track goes through the safety zone behind the range. The track is down by the creek & the range is up on the ridge, so any (very) stray shots would be at least 100m over your head. It's probably safer down on the GNW than it is in the suburbs up on top.

[Rob Gosford]

fantastic ! thank you people for all your replies......
Around the western side of the Range it is then, preferably before 9. I Google Earthed the elevations Turfa and yes the diff is about 100M.......Rifle Range is 180M elevation, the GNW is about 70M elevation. i feel reassured. regards

[colinm]

Parabolas. Being lower than the firing point isn't necessarily good. Bullets don't travel in a straight line, they travel in parabolas.

What is the distance from the firing point, what is the muzzle velocity of the bullet (it will be a range depending on the type of gun and bullet.) Assume the bullets exit at less than 15 degrees above horizontal (but it's possible they could be fired at 45 degrees.) How far would the bullet travel before it got to the track (it will be a range of values) and how long would that take (take into account the deceleration of the bullet in the air) call that X. How long would it take? Call that T. Now, if you just dropped a bullet, and let it freefall for T, how far would it travel in the vertical direction? Call that Y. If Y is much less than 110m, then you're safe.

Or an approximation: How long does it take an object in free fall to descend 100m? http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_woul ... 100_meters does the maths, sqrt(100m/4.9) seconds. That's 4.52s. Maximum muzzle velocity is 1200 m/s, standard 22 is 343 m/s. In 4.5s the ridiculous maximum could travel 5km. The 22 calibre could travel 1.36km along the parabolic arc. If they fired horizontally over a cliff facing you, it would travel a bit less than 1.36km, but they're not, they're firing at < 15 degrees. So the travel is about 75% of that. About 1km.

Seems to me that a standard 22 round would get to the ground within 1km of the range. Your mileage may vary. Check my working. If it's on the other side of a hill, then I'd be relaxed about it (in fact, I've walked it, didn't concern me overly.)

[wildwalks]

Here is the parks POM
http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/parks/PoM_BerowraValleyRP.pdf

Insearch Limited carried out a safety audit on the range in 1995. This audit recommended
the relocation of the section of the Great North Walk which crosses the safety template. As a
response to this, this section of the walk was closed. An alternative route was identified
which diverts the walk around the eastern borders of the rifle range.

The rifle range has a dirt mound at the end of it to stop bullets that are low enough. So it would be possible if some one shot on a weird angle - that is why there is a safety umbrella.
Many people walk this section of the track and it is open (however signposted with a warning)- I am not aware of any reported near misses - nicer walk along the creek.

Matt

[Lindsay]

I have walked this section of the GNW on many occasions with the range in use and have never had any problem. The warning signs and suggested diversion are most likely a legal requirement by council, rather than practical warning.

[Rob Gosford]

hi Matt, thanks for the info.....
From what i have read here from replies (thanks everyone !), i think i'll do the creek route around the western side.......keeping guard at the same time for ColinM's parabolas !

my first time hiking the GNW thru the Berowra Valley and to date have worked my way up to Fishponds. The rest to The Gorge and beyond should be a blast !

[wildwalks]

Hi Rob

Great stuff -- I do walk the valley area regularly -- it is my backyard
The next section of the walk is great - a few depressing hills - but I love the section between Galston Rd and Crosslands in particular.
Happy walking

Matt

[Rob Gosford]

Great stuff -- I do walk the valley area regularly -- it is my backyard

Matt

and what a great backyard Matt
i like The Spa you have. Wanted to jump in and order a drink !

happy trails.....

[Rob Gosford]

Hi Rob

The next section of the walk is great - a few depressing hills - but I love the section between Galston Rd and Crosslands in particular

Matt

did that section today Matt..........a good workout for my legs with poles on those (yes) "depressing hills". HOW GOOD IS FISHPONDS ? WOW !! The 2nd creek crossing heading north after fishponds is as pretty as a picture.........comes with a little waterfall too !

the circling to the west of Hornsby rifle range turned out to be of no concern at all. Heading north, the crack of the guns seemed close to my right (a few machine guns ? i noticed), AND the echoing affect on the hills and ridges to my left made a "SWOOSHING" noise. Quite interesting really !

loved the chooks at the Galston Gorge Trackhead

cherio.......

[Bluegum Mic]

Great to hear you enjoyed it. If you thought the walk up from the military bridge was a heart starter try heading up the fire trail on the other side to Stewart st. That was my sat morning exercise down Stewart st firetrail, up the other side to tunks reserve across and clamber down to the gorge and reverse back. Nasty on a hot summers morning.
If you enjoyed the fishponds I highly recommend doing the bluegum walk. Its notes are on matts website and there is another gorgeous little creek crossing on that walk too. Nice little circuit walk.

[Rob Gosford]

hi Bluegum Mic,
yes i saw that firetrail on my right at the Steel Bridge as i exited from the bush track. Wondered what was up there.......glad i didn't venture to find out lol. Yes i saw the notes on the Bluegum Walk on WildWalks......looks very pleasant. Would you believe mate, that when i was puffing half way up that firetrail between Steel Bridge and Tunks.......a runner overtook me ! Bet he never smoked lol.

if you want a steep climb, try the climb UP from Freemans Drive at Heaton Gap (Watagans) to the top at the Comm Tower. From there along the flat ridge, you arrive at Heaton Lookout on the GNW. Its the steepest climb i've ever experienced. The elevation on Freemans Drive at the start is 167 metres above sea level, RISING to 490 metres above sea level at the Comm Tower on top of the range. It took me an hour from the bottom to the Comm Tower experiencing "3 heart attacks" along the way lol.

cheers mate

[Bluegum Mic]

Ha yes there is a regular crew of trail runners through there that run laps around you. Always makes me feel so fit... Mind you theres been quite a few times where inexperienced mountain bikers have bitten off more than they can chew and you wind up walking up there far faster than their constant stop start attempts to ride up there.

[forest]

if you want a steep climb, try the climb UP from Freemans Drive at Heaton Gap (Watagans) to the top at the Comm Tower. From there along the flat ridge, you arrive at Heaton Lookout on the GNW. Its the steepest climb i've ever experienced. The elevation on Freemans Drive at the start is 167 metres above sea level, RISING to 490 metres above sea level at the Comm Tower on top of the range. It took me an hour from the bottom to the Comm Tower experiencing "3 heart attacks" along the way lol.

Its a good little grunt isn't it. That's my local training hill (along with plenty of others). Bit slippery on the clay bits when its raining, especially coming down.

[wildwalks]

Hi Rob -- glad you enjoyed the walk -- Fishponds is a great treat hey
I walked the Blue gum circuit today -- saw 11 groups of walkers in just an hour -- it was great to see some many people enjoying this space today.
Matt

[Bluegum Mic]

Wowsers. I usually dont find anyone else past the fish ponds...well especially once you hit the ferns. Yes I do love that walk (well except for the day I tripped on a rock, tore my acl and 10cm up between my tib/fib and fractured my talus...that day I'll happily forget

[wildwalks]

Ouch - ouch -

We have had a week over sunny weather and great weather for the weekend. It seems to pull lots of people out - a lot doing their first or second walk ever.

Matt
Ps did I say "ouch" that sounds like a memorable walk

[Rob Gosford]

Mind you theres been quite a few times where inexperienced mountain bikers

hi Bluegum,
was hiking up near Newcastle late last year and i didn't hear them coming and my hearing is vg ........ 3 MTB riders cycled right up behind me to overtake on the single trail, when the lead rider - as he was on my shoulder - spoke out "coming thru !" to which i died a thousand deaths lol ! As they passed i YELLED out at them "WHY DON'T YOU RING YER FRIGGING BELL TO GIVE WARNING!!", to which one of them turned and gives me "the bird". &^%^^$#$%@. I'm not anti-MTB, as i also ride on the trails. BUT ......

[Rob Gosford]

Its a good little grunt isn't it. That's my local training hill (along with plenty of others). Bit slippery on the clay bits when its raining, especially coming down.

hi Forest,
yes and a vg training hill IT IS ......first time up there last year, coming back down, a hiker with full pack caught me up and we walked down to the road and across to Watagans Forest Petrol stop together yapping. He was training for Kokoda, leaving that next week. At the servo, he took his pack off and bid me farewell >>>>> he was going back up. I asked how many times do you go back up. Answer 5 !! I tried to lift his pack off the ground......couldn't He had bricks in there ! I bid him farewell and good luck next week. crikey !

[Rob Gosford]

I walked the Blue gum circuit today -- saw 11 groups of walkers in just an hour --
Matt

hi Matt,
they may have been the same walkers that passed me on saturday. Came across about 8 groups of year 11 & 12 schoolies and teachers on a hike. All with full packs.

[Harry de Walker]

The Berowra Valley Plan of Management and Police guidelines make it very clear that no walkers or bikers are permitted within the safety zone of the rifle range. What a sensible idea. There is link to the PoM document earlier on in this thread - if you haven't, then go read it and become informed.

This means no traveling along Quarry Rd trail from not long after Pogsons Trig to the switchback just above Tunks Ridge camping ground - verboten.
Same verboten with the trail from Steele Bridge to Stewart St, it too enters the safety zone of the rifle range as well.

Clear as what on every map I have seen.

So to those who trespass into these prohibited areas why continue to put yourself (or your kids) at risk of one in the head, just because arrogance outweighs good sense?

If you cannot (or don't care) to inform yourself of what is legal and what is not by reading a map and the Plan of Management, then you might as well stay at home because you are obviously a risk to yourself and the rest of us who stick to the approved trails and do the right thing by everyone.

I'll make a prediction... The heavy hand will be applied because of the few idiots and be sure more signs and gates could be installed as a result.

Can't really whinge when you consider that the rifle range has been where it is way long before anyone thought to land-bank crown land into 'parks', which BTW one thinks is not such a bad thing... but lunatic bikers on trails and tracks, only tears will result.

Regards,

Harry de Walker

[colinm]

The Berowra Valley Plan of Management and Police guidelines make it very clear that no walkers or bikers are permitted within the safety zone of the rifle range. What a sensible idea. There is link to the PoM document earlier on in this thread - if you haven't, then go read it and become informed.

I just read it, and I do not feel better informed. I accept that I may have missed the information to which you allude. Could you please show me where in the document it is made clear that no walkers or bikers are permitted within the safety zone of the rifle range?

This means no traveling along Quarry Rd trail from not long after Pogsons Trig to the switchback just above Tunks Ridge camping ground - verboten.
Same verboten with the trail from Steele Bridge to Stewart St, it too enters the safety zone of the rifle range as well.
Clear as what on every map I have seen.

In doing so, it appears to leave the national park by crossing its boundaries into an area leased (according to the PoM) to the rifle range operators. It would seem likely to me, therefore, that use of the the sections of trail to which you refer could not be prohibited by the PoM, as they fall outside its boundaries, and outside the bailiwick of NPWS.

So to those who trespass into these prohibited areas why continue to put yourself (or your kids) at risk of one in the head, just because arrogance outweighs good sense?
If you cannot (or don't care) to inform yourself of what is legal and what is not by reading a map and the Plan of Management, then you might as well stay at home because you are obviously a risk to yourself and the rest of us who stick to the approved trails and do the right thing by everyone.

See, I get a bit grumpy when people throw words like 'trespass', 'prohibited' and '[il]legal' around without clearly specifying the basis for their beliefs. While it might well be a Good Idea (TM) to avoid those areas, and there may well be statutory instruments prohibiting their use by bushwalkers, I fail to see that the PoM is one such document.

I think you err in ascribing to arrogance the tendency of people in NSW to ignore authorities' safety pronouncements. Rather, I think, we have become habituated to authorities using safety as a pretext. I don't think it's arrogant to be sceptical about suggestions that, in NSW (it may be different elsewhere,) the government acts in the best interests of the people. I think it's a scepticism founded on 200 years' history of very poor government.

I'll make a prediction... The heavy hand will be applied because of the few idiots and be sure more signs and gates could be installed as a result.

I hope you're mistaken in your prediction, but offer no opinion as to probabilities.

Can't really whinge when you consider that the rifle range has been where it is way long before anyone thought to land-bank crown land into 'parks', which BTW one thinks is not such a bad thing... but lunatic bikers on trails and tracks, only tears will result.

No whinging from me. I would not recommend anyone cross the range, because it may not be a good idea, it may expose them to risk.

My personal preference is that people have accurate and detailed information upon which to base their decisions and assess their risks. I do not think that waving around threats of sanctions according to law really suffices. If it's a bad idea, it's a bad idea whether or not there is law forbidding it, if there is law forbidding it then the law should be knowable to all, if it's a bad idea then the reasoning should be available to all.

[colinm]

I read in http://friendsberowravalley.org.au/G-BV ... Book_6.pdf

The safety zone was originally set to include such distances as to cover the fall of a 0.303 in. bullet (about 5 miles or 8 km).

Which doesn't seem right ... the current extent isn't 8km.

The PoM refers to a 'safety template', but nothing further.

It would be interesting, I think, to have the audit document pertaining to this range.

[kjbeath]

The distance travelled is determined by the angle into the air, as well as the bullet, with maximum range at 30-35 degrees. Given that these are competition sports shooters, not Rambo's having a monthly shoot as in America, it would be assumed that they can aim reasonably well. A similar assumption is made with the width of the ranges, which seem to allow for about 5-10 degree error.

[Lindsay]

The track that the OP was discussing, the GNW, follows the east bank of Berowra creek, passing approximately 500 meters beyond and 100 meters below the butts at the end of the rifle range, hugging the base of an escarpment for much of the way past the range. It is extremely unlikely, if not impossible, that any round that passes over the berm behind the butts will strike anywhere near this track given the nature of the ground. The signs recommending not forbidding, access along the track are more a bureaucratic *&%$#! covering excercise than a serious warning.

[Harry de Walker]

So that people are informed here is the exact text from the Berowra Valley Plan of Management, the link is earlier found on this page.

BEROWRA VALLEY REGIONAL PARK PLAN OF MANAGEMENT - 2005

pg 20
Some trails are not available for public use due to being located on private property or being within the rifle range safety zone.

pg 22 - 23
6.2.4 Cycling
Cycling or bike riding (as opposed to motor bike riding) has been one of the more popular recreation pursuits in recent years. Cycling is currently permitted on all management trails in the Park with the exception of those sections of trail within the rifle range safety zone. Cycling is not permitted on walking tracks.

Management Strategies:
• Cycling will be permitted on all management trails in the Park with the exception of those sections of trail on private property or within the rifle range safety zone;

In plain English...

This means no walking (see page 20) or riding (see page 22-23) on Quarry Road trail across Tunk's Ridge where the trail crosses the safety zone.

This means no walking (see page 20) or riding (see page 22-23) on Quarry Road trail from the Stewart Ave trailhead because the trail crosses into the safety zone.

The Great North Walk / Benowie Trail is the only approved (by NPWS) walking trail to be used to cross the safety zone. It was moved from the western side of the creek to its new location on the eastern side under the lee of the hill back in the later 1990s.

Alternative for nervous walkers is to come up out of the valley at the end of Manor Road before the Fishponds, walk up along Rosamond, then back to the trail via Clarinda. Same in reverse from Steele Bridge.

Hope this helps.

[GPSGuided]

I think a map of the trail/area in question would be worthwhile, especially for those who are less familiar with the area. Any one has a topo handy? Where did I put mine???