Hunting in some NSW National Parks

[sambar358]

On foxes....like many other hunters back in the '70's & '80's I used to shoot several 100 foxes for pelts during the winter by spotlighting at night on private property & public land. Prices for prime winter pelts were up to $50 each and most nights I would shoot 20 or so. These pelts were bound for the international fur trade which back then had a high demand for quality fox skins and each year several 100 thousand prime Aussie winter-shot fox skins went overseas to feed the demand for fur in the fashion industry. Shooting foxes for their winter pelts had been going on for many years and I would imagine that this practice conducted throughout the colder regions of Vic & NSW in particular would have had a significant effect of fox numbers. But with the involvement of animal activists protesting about the use of animal furs in the fashion industry the international demand for fox skins rapidly declined and the winter shooting of foxes by recreational hunters largely ceased due to low pelt prices and rising fuel costs. So foxes being foxes flourished once again and numbers quickly built-up and they have done-so largely unchecked despite various regional control methods such as 1080 poisoning & trapping conducted by local government agencies in most rural areas.

In Victoria we have had several short-term "fox bounty" programs over the years to encourage recreational hunters to target foxes and while it'll never replace the impact of the large-scale spotlighting of foxes for the fur trade of the '70's & '80's these have been successful albeit short-lived due largely to the limited funds allocated to these programs by various state governments. The current on-going program which has a $10 bountry per fox last year paid-out on in excess of 117,000 foxes in the first year (Oct 2011 - Oct 2012) but this figure would not be an accurate representation of the total kill of foxes by Victorian hunters in that time as the Vic Govt fox bounty is paid only to shooters who can provide proof of membership of an AHO...an Approved Hunting Organisation. Many hunters and shooters are NOT members of an AHO and therefore are inelligible to collect this $10 bounty. So the true figures on the annual fox kill by recreational hunters in Vic is impossible to estimate but it would be well above the pay-out figure for the fox bounty obviously. A dead fox is a dead fox...a fox that will not breed and produce more foxes, a dead fox is also a fox that will not kill any more small birds, mammals, marsupials or reptiles and in the absence of a better solution programs such as the current Vic fox bounty that encourage hunters to target foxes is certainly far better than the alternative......complaining about the rising numbers of foxes and their impact on the environment but then doing little about it ! Cheers

sambar358

[Tony]

Hi sambar358,

you wrote

In Victoria we have had several short-term "fox bounty" programs over the years to encourage recreational hunters to target foxes and while it'll never replace the impact of the large-scale spotlighting of foxes for the fur trade of the '70's & '80's these have been successful albeit short-lived due largely to the limited funds allocated to these programs by various state governments. The current on-going program which has a $10 bountry per fox last year paid-out on in excess of 117,000 foxes in the first year (Oct 2011 - Oct 2012)

I would suggest you read this Evaluation of the 2002/2003 Victorian Fox Bounty Trial before you make claims that fox bounties work and please note the section (section 4.3) on the 1994-1999 fox eradication program on Phillip Island.

Phillip Island has ideal conditions for the application of conventional control largely through either spotlight or day shooting techniques. A closed population of foxes subjected to intensive control using conventional methods has not declined and each year fox reproduction easily replaces the number of animals killed. If an annual reduction in fox numbers cannot be achieved on a small (100 km2) closed island population through coordinated shooting by skilled and motivated persons, it is unrealistic to expect that this can be done in an open population in a much greater area (section 4.3).

.

Tony

[johnw]

All I object to is the use of National Parks for hunting, as I believe it's an inappropriate use of the space, it exposes people to avoidable and unnecessary risk of severe injury and death for absolutely no gain or legitimate purpose. That's all, it's also enough.

++++1. This sums it up for me beautifully and succinctly.

[Pteropus]

NSW NPWS rangers calling for body armour -> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-04/p ... ection=nsw
Probably unnecessary, but it shows the sentiment by park rangers with compromised workplace safety.

[wayno]

it turns out experienced hunters are just as if not more likely to shoot another person, they believe they know how to identify their game and are very sure of themselves identifying their targets, in some case making them more likely to pull the trigger on another person they have mistakenly identified

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=10874679

[sambar358]

Wayno....it certainly seems that EXPERIENCED NZ HUNTERS manage to shoot each other fairly regulary but you are drawing a long bow applying these statistics across the Tasman. Over here in OZ we have had very little of this (hunter/hunter shootings) in comparison to the NZ hunter/hunter fatalities so it's probably not a valid argument to raise against the Hunting in NSW Parks proposal. So how many trampers/walkers/non-hunters have been shot by in-bush NZ hunters in way of comparison to the NZ hunter/hunter fatalities ? I can recall one a couple of years ago where a woman was shot and killed at a camp ground by a bunch of spotlighters in a ute...hardly real in-bush deer hunters....but yobs with a gun out spotlighting trying to get an easy deer most certainly though.

In Victoria deer hunting has been an integral part of most of the Alpine National Park for over 25 years and in that time there have been NO bushwalkers, fishermen, mountain bike riders, campers etc. shot by deer hunters despite some 100's of hunters being dispersed throughout the Park for most of the time between mid February and the end of November. Most visitors to the ANP would be blistfully unaware that they were even sharing the bush with deer hunters let alone actually meeting one while he/she was actively hunting. So that's the situation here using the Victorian ANP experience. Maybe Aussies should be more concerned about doing the Milford Track in Fiordland during the roar going rather than going for a wander in one of the NSW Parks likely to allow limited managed hunting some time this year ? Cheers

sambar358

[wayno]

you let more hunters into more parks more people will be shot
hunting is banned on all great walks including the milford track, because of the terrain you won't get a hunter in the same valleys as the milford track
fiordland is a bad example anyway, vast area for hunters to choose from. limited no's of trampers. most shooting accients arent so remote.
hunters and bushwalkers cross over activities a fair bit in nz

[sambar358]

Fair enough Wayno..the Milford Track was probably a bad example to use but plenty of trampers use lots of popular hunting areas in NZ and I'd be pretty confident in stating that there have been no NZ hunter shootings of these recreationalists. Just Kiwi hunters shooting other Kiwi hunters which essentially is a failure to follow the most basic of firearms safety rules....correctly identifying your target 100%. I've hunted in Fiorldand and the central Nth Island a few times and have never met a tramper....just a few other hunters. Your comment : "hunters and bushwalkers cross over activities a fair bit in nz" also applies to the ANP in Victoria it's just that most walkers are unaware of it. I've hunted in the ANP 100's of times over the past 25 years yet met walkers only twice and each time I was on a track walking back to my vehicle. Neither group of walkers had ever met a hunter before despite sambar deer hunting being a popular Feb-Nov recreational activity. "You let more people into Parks then more people will be shot"....can't accept that either....here we have had NO people shot in the ANP in 25 years despite a significant increase in hunter activity in the Park in that time.....so that's not a valid reason to criticise the NSW proposal in my view. The reality is people are in far more danger from idiots on the road going to and from a Park than they will ever be from the presence of a few hunters in the general area where they might be walking or camping.....the thought of being shot is a bit getting eaten by a shark....both highly unlikely but just the same events that attract lots of emotive outcrying from people over-estimating the risk of either ever occuring to them in the real world. As always though....just my slant of things. Cheers

sambar358

[wayno]

trampers still do get shot at in nz, i know someone who was narrowly missed by a bullet fired at him, on a relatively popular walking track in nelson lakes,,
what i don't know is for every person shot and hit, how many are shot at and the bullet misses
the no of hunters shot is an indication that there are more hunters being shot at than trampers but it is still certainly not entirely safe for trampers , they are definitely being shot at, i've come across a fair no of hunters who just hunt on the tracks...

[Tony]

Police charge Game Council boss

[sambar358]

Yep...been following that one with interest Tony. I note that the bloke is going to vigorously contest the charges so let's not jump to conclusions 'eh ? Innocent until proven guilty and all that. But in general terms anyone found to be doing the wrong thing in regards to illegal actitivity like is alleged here needs to have the book thrown at them regarless of who they are. If these blokes are found 'guilty as charged" in the courts then they should feel the full force of the law....period. But tarring all potential NSW Parks hunters with the same brush (as some are keen to do) in regards to this is once again drawing a pretty long bow....but it has certainly set-back the NSW Hunting in Parks agenda which for many obviously is seen as a welcome delay...it remains to be see what the final wash-up of this incident will be in the light of the bigger picture. Time will tell I guess. Cheers

sambar358

[colinm]

... once again drawing a pretty long bow ...

Yeah, longbows have no place in civil society.

[michael_p]

A Game Council volunteer charged over illegal hunting now opposes hunting in NPs:
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/seasoned-shooter-joins-opposition-to-hunting-in-state-national-parks-20130411-2hokl.html

[colinm]

A Game Council volunteer charged over illegal hunting now opposes hunting in NPs

So cracks begin to appear ...

I'll bet my left nut that there's a plea bargain a little ways down the track: cooperation with the authorities in identifying other, greater transgressions would show contrition to the Magistrate and mitigate the penalty. The Game Council will, of course, offer pay for defence, but is that really enough? They can't indemnify against consequences.

So I wrote a poem for the noble hunters.

Meanwhile, back at HQ, the Shootin' Party are thumping desks and demanding unity,
"Remember, the filthy Greens are the enemy!"

Lists of those who might waver are drawn,
Loyal lieutenants in clean camo dispatched to outline the penalties of disunity,
"Remember that time you gut-shot the roo? Wouldn't want *that* brought up ... best keep your head down."

But HQ staff have their own trophies that can never see the light of day, and threat meets surly tacit counter-threat.
Who will be next to rat out The Cause?

Brothers in arms shuffle slowly for cover,
Crouching watching, tense as a tendon, poised to squeeze off a shot.
A branch cracks, an accidental word is overheard, and everyone goes for their best chance.

Who will be last standing? The best placement, or the itchiest finger?

(I'll work on metre and scansion some other time.)

[Tony]

Fox hunter shot in gun accident on property north of Albury

[jacko]

The whole subject is political and that takes rationality out of the equation ,
We cannot walk in thr parks when other peoiple are firing guns.
Simple, Get rid of O Farell

[Tony]

Time is right for O'Farrell to kill off hunting plan

[wayno]

THE Australian Workers Union (AWU) is urging the NSW government to enforce a 10-kilometre shooting exclusion zone around the homes of employees who live and work in the state's national parks.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/b ... YI.twitter

[north-north-west]

THE Australian Workers Union (AWU) is urging the NSW government to enforce a 10-kilometre shooting exclusion zone around the homes of employees who live and work in the state's national parks.

Oh Great. The Rangers will be guaranteed safety, but we poor bushwalkers are considered expendable.
I think I'm going to get one of those long fibreglass poles with the neon orange flags that paranoid parents put on their kids' bikes. At least then I can be sure that if I get shot, it wasn't an accident . . .

[michael_p]

Article in the SMH today: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/confessions-of-a-deer-hunter-20130517-2jqtl.html.

[stepbystep]

4 Corners might be worth a watch tomorrow.

[wildwalks]

4 Corners might be worth a watch tomorrow.

Looks very much worth a watch
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/ ... 776198.htm

Matt

[Nuts]

Was there anything new or sensational. I lost interest 10mins in. Taking feral animals humanely and making use of them yes but I'm sure i don't understand, will probably never relate to, the 'urban warrior' thing.

[Chris]

Was there anything new or sensational. I lost interest 10mins in. Taking feral animals humanely and making use of them yes but I'm sure i don't understand, will probably never relate to, the 'urban warrior' thing.

Probably nothing particularly new. The highlight for me was statement by the H&S Party MP that the killing instinct exists in all of us - such a remarkably stupid comment that I felt he lost any possibility credibility there. Interesting to hear the comments of the professional feral animal shooter, though I suppose he could be said to have a vested interest in keeping the amateurs out.

The repeat will be on ABC1 at 11.30pm tomorrow (Tuesday).

[FatCanyoner]

Interesting incident up in QLD: http://www.gladstoneobserver.com.au/new ... y/1912812/

Bushwalker, shot in mysterious circumstances, with locals saying there is a lot of pig shooting that happens in the area... one to keep an eye on.

[FatCanyoner]

Also interesting, the Game Council of NSW, which will oversee hunting in national parks, has just been given a big funding increase.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/brea ... public_rss

THE body representing the interests of hunters has been handed a $1.7 million funding increase in the NSW budget.

Funding for the NSW Game Council, which regulates and approves licensed hunting of pest species, increased more than 60 per cent from $2.6 million in the last financial year to $4.3 million, Tuesday's budget reveals.

The Greens described the increase as a "payoff" to the Shooters Party for its Upper House support of government legislation, including the privatisation of electricity assets.

[ULWalkingPhil]

I think the government has there priorities wrong here. They give a gun organization such a high funding.

Meanwhile recently in my home town we had the worst flooding in history. Something like 2000 homes damaged or washed away and we get one million from the government.

I can't understand how they can gibe a gun organization so much more money than a natural disaster we had sustained

[ULWalkingPhil]

Interesting incident up in QLD: http://www.gladstoneobserver.com.au/new ... y/1912812/

Bushwalker, shot in mysterious circumstances, with locals saying there is a lot of pig shooting that happens in the area... one to keep an eye on.

I think we will be a lot safer here in QLD than in NSW. Allowing shooters in a national park is absurd.

[Toolybird]

Hmm, now this is a worry:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-23/h ... ea/4774094

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-23/i ... in/4774088

[Overlandman]

From ABC News
Anti game-hunting campaigners say they have photographic evidence of two illegal hunters in the Greater Blue Mountains World Heritage Area in New South Wales.

A group of bushwalkers claim they came across a pair of hunters with rifles strapped to their backs near Tigersnake Canyon last Saturday.

The National Parks and Wildlife Service says the incident was reported to them, but authorities were unable to locate the men.

Plans to introduce recreational hunting in national parks are on hold, pending the outcome of a report into the Game Council.

The program would allow amateur hunters to eradicate pests in some NSW national parks.

But the National Parks Association's Justin McKee says that plan is dangerous.

"An incident like this in a high tourism area demonstrated the potential for conflict between the public and armed hunters," he said.

"Hunting in national parks is bad policy, its bad for tourism, public safety and the environment.

"It ruins the international reputation of our national parks brand that has taken 50 years to build up."