North Face Jacket - delamination / faulty? [IMAGE WARNING]

[Moondog55]

Send it registered and take lots of photographs of the problems before posting it

[Stonie]

Got the photos! will send registered. cheers.

[Stonie]

Ok in conclusion of this two month saga.

North Face (true alliance) has finally sent me a replacement jacket.

NB: I have learnt a lot about membranes from this experience in particular from the people that have contributed to this thread. Thank you.

Once I got my wife's new jacket I checked the retail tags for more care information (attached)
There is nothing there about washing frequency, and the way I read the tag it might in fact encourage less washing? “waterproof after several washes” ?

Either way it is confusing / misleading, I also could not find a mention of hyVent care on any of TNFs websites. Only care instructions for Gortex jackets. HyVent is TNF own membrane? Seems odd.

So I emailed them back again and asked them _again_ explicitly on a guideline to washing frequency of their jackets. This is the reply from the US (via True Alliance):

Based on what TNF International advised us this fault on Venture jackets happens because of body sweat, specially @ the back of the neck.

For thicker types of TNF Jackets such as Nuptse, circadian or Himalayan, TNF recommends customers to wash the product, only once a year.
That’s because those styles have multiple layers and diffract type of fabric.
And the body sweat and skin oil won't damage their inner lining.

But in thin/one layer jackets such as Venture or wind wall, the product should be washed every 3 months.
Otherwise those factors will damage the laminate.

So unless you bought your gear from someone knowledgeable like Gus, or read this thread... it's highly likely that you won't get the advice you need to care for a HyVent jacket correctly.
Remembering that I bought the jacket. Returned the jacket, picked up the jacket, had three phone conversations, posted the jacket back. And then exchanged 19 emails before I managed to extract the care information above.

They can't offer a “lifetime guarantee” but fail to explain that delamintation will occur early unless you do “x”

Maybe hyVent will last the lifetime of the Jacket if washed every three months in Techwash? I guess I wont know for a while yet.

If you own hyVent product I would do as they say and wash it every three months and in particular before storing if you won't be using it for a while.

In my opinion if you are thinking of buying hyVent. Just don't. Get gortex or something else more durable.
If you are thinking about buying TNF gear in Australia. Know that after-sales is very poor.

The worst part of all this is not technical details of membranes and washing debates. it's shockingly inept and subversive customer service.

Regards,
Andrew Stone.

[wayno]

yeah sometimes the generic stuff is just there in their lineup to get money from people who arent going to buy the more expensive stuff like gore tex, and you get less for your money..
if you work up a sweat in the jacket then wash it afterwards....

interesting, i cant see any northface gore tex jackets for women https://shop.thenorthface.com.au/trueal ... e=Rainwear

[Stonie]

yeah sometimes the generic stuff is just there in their lineup to get money from people who arent going to buy the more expensive stuff like gore tex, and you get less for your money..

I think you are spot on. HyVent seems to be their cheap commodity type membrane.

Lesson learned! I think it's worth spending a bit more money for a decent membrane and choose a different brand with decent aftersales.

[casey79]

Your kidding me!!

You got a new jacket not because there was anything wrong with the jacket but because you had a huge rant and complain in a forum and made their life hell!! I am sure everyone who works in outdoor retail, design or manufacturing knows the same. Have you heard the saying "Squeaky wheel gets the grease" if not here is a link for a defintion: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... the+grease

The jacket was washed once in four years and the oils of the skin & hair, sweet etc caused the the fabric to delaminate (happens below the hood as this is where bare skin and hair is in direct contact with the fabric). This is he reason that the fabric delaminates not due to faulty fabrics. Jackets need to be washed & one half assed wash in 4 years is not enough.

I assume that TNF expected that the common sense of I need to wash the jacket if I wear it then I need to clean it would be there. Unfortunately common sense is that not common anymore, people don't take responsibility for there own actions and will blame someone else for their own stupidity.

moderation edit

[wayno]

i've got the same jacket that old thats hardly been washed. no problems with it.
its debateable the lack of washing alone did that to the jacket....
clothes should keep most of the body oils from getting through to the jacket...

[Stonie]

@casey79 Before getting too worked up, you probably should read the whole thread again.

TNF could have prevented this by providing the correct care advice at point of sale or at any time since.
Regardless of the technical details they ran me around for two months without a straight answer.
TNF has always referred to this jacket as "Faulty"

This whole situation could have been easily averted with common sense.

Regards,
Andrew.

[wayno]

i've got an old event jacket i'm not fussed about, i wear it regularly at work, don't wash it and the membrane is fine....

[casey79]

clothes should keep most of the body oils from getting through to the jacket...

And that is why the fabric delaminates around he back of the neck. Super oily skin, hair (and if she is like my partner here is hairspray and product in the hair) is in direct contact with the skin.

[wayno]

i've never seen a jacket delaminate like that one, i've had a few i've neglected over the years. i'd put that damage down to a crap membrane at least as much as body oils. my girlfriends one is in pristine condition after several years, gets washed once a year...

[casey79]

@casey79 Before getting too worked up, you probably should read the whole thread again.

TNF could have prevented this by providing the correct care advice at point of sale or at any time since.
Regardless of the technical details they ran me around for two months without a straight answer.
TNF has always referred to this jacket as "Faulty"

This whole situation could have been easily averted with common sense.

Regards,
Andrew.

I did read the entire thread and the only person who said he jacket was faulty was the guy in TNF store. The actual experienced person who assessed the jacket at TA said it was not faulty. I would think TNF store now gives no recommendation of if a jacket is warranty and will just say "I will send it away for assessment and get back to you".

[Stonie]

did read the entire thread and the only person who said he jacket was faulty was the guy in TNF store. The actual experienced person who assessed the jacket at TA said it was not faulty. I would think TNF store now gives no recommendation of if a jacket is warranty and will just say "I will send it away for assessment and get back to you".

Errmm... Not the case at all, the True Alliance rep even quoted "This Fault" when offering washing advice... please read above again.

Moderation Edit

[wayno]

you buy an event jacket you often get a massive label on it with big writing saying "wash me often" or similar words....
doesnt sound like stonie got anything like that with his jacket

[wayno]

Membranes can vary in their quality from batch to batch from the mill, witness various posts on the forum about event delaminating badly, on some jackets but not others irespective of how well the fabric has been treated by some very experienced bushwalkers, my girlfriend has long hair there must be oil coming off her hair onto her jacket, she often just rolls it up and puts it in the cupboard straight after using it.... no discolouration, no delamination..

[wayno]

oh yeah, my girlfriend got the jacket second hand from my ex who had it three years. and she never washed the jacket....

[smiles]

Hi Stonie,

Thank you for sharing your experiences. My wife and I purchased exactly the same jackets in Auckland NZ in 2008, have worn them maybe 6 to 10 times around town in the years that we have had them, and have experienced exactly the same delamination problem. I am currently going thru the process of getting them replaced under the lifetime warranty, and ran into similar problems with True Alliance. It would appear that their attitude is that anything over two years old is fair wear and tear, even if it is only worn once or twice during that time! I searched online for anyone who may have experienced issues with delamination of the Hyvent proofing and was lucky enough to come across your article. This has saved me quite a lot of work as our cases are virtually identical. I have gone back to the retail outlet that sold me the jackets (I still have my receipt!) and sent them an email outlining the issue, and quoted this forum (your article), and the Consumer Guarantees Act. Pretty hard for them to argue with the facts that you have presented! Now just going thru the process - the retail chain has just responded to my email and has requested the jackets be sent to their Head Office for reassessment. Will keep you posted on how this progresses

How has the replacement jacket you received held up? Any other issues that you have come across that may hinder our warranty claim?

Regards Dave

[David_Sweden]

Thanks for a very good and revealing thread. I have exactly the same problem with my TNF jacket I bought 4-5 years ago, and I thought I should add some pictures and quote what they said. I suppose those in Australia and Europe have the same problem (in the US the warranty might be better).

When I first e-mailed VFC.com in Belgium (who import TNF), Barbara at the Customer Care Team said "As far as I know, we do not have an issue with the lining of TNF jackets.". But then I read about the problems in this forum and other places and told her it is called "de-lamination" and apparently well-known.

Then Jolien Dusauchoit at the warranty dept. wrote "I think in your case the problem might have been you washed the product not enough." and that I should have washed it "maybe even once a month if used almost daily" to avoid delamination. They said I was welcome to send it to them since their repair service can re-laminate some jackets, and that it was ok to wait until the winter is over. I wore it this winter even though wherever I go it looks like I have a severe case of dandruff..

I had washed only the fleece since the rest looked and smelled clean, and I had always used 2 layers of clean clothes underneath and only used it in the city when going to/from work etc, i e maybe 1 hour per day, not breaking a sweat, so even with this new requirement on washing monthly if used much, it should translate to at least 4-5 month intervals in my case if just counting the hours (several years if counting sweat). I decided to send it to them via their brand store in Gothenburg (since the store where I bought it decided to stop selling TNF). The owner said, before sending it, that he didn't think it was possible to repair, and that they recommend washing every 4 months. He also said the cause for delamination is it being dirty but that this can't be seen due to being black - very interesting how this thread with the light jacket reveals this lie. I e-mailed VFC and said the jacket is on the way but by then Jolien had stopped working there; instead Sylwia Chalupka wrote that they recommend washing every 3 weeks (!).

Today, when I collected my unrepaired jacket, the sales clerk confirmed they don't include any instructions that says they are to be washed neither every 3 weeks nor every 4 months. The EU care instructions say "How often should I wash my Hyvent® garment? Wash your garment as often as you need to remove such impurities as dirt, campfire smoke and cooking odours. Washing and drying your garment helps restore the durable water repellent (DWR) that is important to the performance of a Hyvent® garment.". The US care instructions don't mention hyvent but says for shell jackets "In order to revive the DWR, the product needs to be thoroughly cleaned with a powder detergent (do not use a liquid detergent) in a regular washing machine in warm water.". Nothing about need to wash it every 4 months or 3 weeks to avoid it getting ruined by delamination. If they really do need such extreme washing intervals (assuming they are not making up these recommendations as they go) it should be clearly stated in the jacket and on their web site.

Another thing the owner of the TNF shop in Gothenburg said was that it is normal to wash this often just like you wash a pair of jeans. First of all 4 months would be much for a pair of jeans but they would smell by that time if used daily. But a better comparison is with my 15 years old DKNY cotton winter/autumn jacket, which has never been completely washed, just dabbed some parts around the throat a couple of times (it's the only part that gets in touch with the skin, and only if no scarf).

So I guess the conclusion is that TNF is not for every day use, just for outdoors adventures, accompanied by washes about 10 times per season, unless you think €250 is ok for something that lasts only 4-6 years. Gore-Tex does not have this problem from what I've read.

Complete jacket

Side and back

Closeup back

[wayno]

looks like you have a loose nylon mesh liner on that jacket, friction between the hard nylon liner rubbing against the waterproof membrane would have contributed to braking down the membrane. although it may just be a contributing factor and not the only reason. its cheap construction actually to make a jacket that way. the best way is to have any inner liner bonded to the membrane to eliminate the friction between those two layers.