Unmarked Passes - How much info online, is too much?

[Lotsafreshair]

Hi all,
As some of you know, I have a blog that aims to encourage people to get out into the bush safely and enjoy themselves! (Not to mention all the other benefits!)
I'm currently working on a video and blog post (hopefully for tomorrow if I can get it finished in time!) that I shot whilst out in Morton NP/Ettrema over the Oct l/weekend.
We accessed an area of Ettrema via a dramatic featured pass that you won't find on maps and 5 pages into a Google search it still doesn't appear (I gave up at that point). It has a name that is known to bushwalkers, especially those in clubs in Sydney/Shoalhaven.
At the time, I questioned my fellow walkers as to whether they felt it was OK to mention the pass by name on video/online, and they felt it was fine. I wasn't giving any directions or locations to it and won't be posting any maps.
I just wanted to hear what you guys all thought? In the end, I have to make my own decision, but I'm interested to hear what things I should consider first.
Thanks!
C

[GPSGuided]

That depends on whether there's a reason why it has been a "secret" of sort in times past. If not, then publicising it is no different to all the travel blogs in the media and elsewhere, introducing others to something that has been less known. If there's a cultural or environmental or other reasons for muting its existence, then you should follow suit. As a matter of fact, not sharing a good thing (public park/space) can be regarded as being selfish, but of course, that word is probably a bit strong for the circumstance... Just my take.

[awildland]

It is a bit of dilemma because sometimes what makes a place so special is the fact that its has been kept "secret" or unpublicised and so very few people know about it which means it is rarely visited and therefore often in a pretty untouched state. By naming and promoting it, is there a risk of opening it up to too much love?

I often think about this when deciding on stories to post on our blog page but... part of the desire is to show people how beautiful the environment is and encourage them to experience that for themselves as this is often the best way to recruit people to the next step..ie of helping protect nature.

I think being vague about directions and access, and not giving specific directions or locations is the best solution. Even if you name the place only people who are serious enough will work out how to get there themselves and they will do this even if you don't name it.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on this for the moment, look forward to reading everyone else's comments.

Chrissy

[perfectlydark]

Im with gps on this. If theres a good reason for the secrecy then fine, otherwise remember national parks are there for eveyone not our own little exclusive things, as mich ad I like privacy in the bush I woukd feel good knowing that more people are enjoying it. The more that enjoy it the less likely politicians are to make stupid decisions based on what they make think is a small interest group (see our PMs comments on tasmania this week...)

[GPSGuided]

In any case, if it's sufficiently remote, the human load will remain limited. Yet again, when flagged by a superstar, the effect could well be somewhat different. Power of the media! So, where's this place? We want to know.

[DaveNoble]

"Show but don't tell" is often a wise thing to do and encourage others to do. So you can show others the pass on trip, but don't tell other people in trip notes etc about it.

Dave

[Lotsafreshair]

Heh, no superstars here, GPSG!

Thanks for your comments guys. It's all helped me make my decision.

... going live tomorrow morning on youtube channel....

[tom_brennan]

I generally leave out the names of those sorts of places ... so I guess I'd be giving you the same advice! Once the name is on the internet, it's hard to take it off again.

[GPSGuided]

Don't quite understand the thinking here. If walkers of yesteryear didn't share their finds, we'd still be sitting on park lawns. If it's a sensitive area, then keep out. Otherwise we all contribute to the upkeep of NPs per earlier. If people are excluded from the delights unless well connected, no wonder there'll be falls in support for the fraternity. Didn't we discuss the fall off in membership in bushwalking clubs not so long ago?

[icefest]

I'd compare it to the iconic images of the lower franklin. If these places were not publicised there would be much less interest in conservation.

[Hallu]

To me the main case where you shouldn't mention it is if you'd found proof of ancient aboriginal activity (axe grooves, middens, art etc...) or rare fauna/flora and it hadn't been explored by scientists and conservationnists yet. Then it would be a big no-no as it could be vandalised or poached : driven by money, poachers will explore regions that rangers won't. If it's very dangerous terrain only for expert bushwalkers it's probably worth keeping the name and location out as well. But not mentionning it because you had a great time and wanna keep it for yourself, it wouldn't make sense writing about it in a blog then.

[Swampy460]

Its a tricky one ,
I am on a fishing forum and there have been some VERY heated and passionate arguements for and against keeping a secret spot just that "secret". As specialy when it comes to native fish,for there protection, be that sellfish or not ???
I have seen people get so upset from both sides that they have left the forum or been ridiculed (sp) for letting the so called cat out of the bag.
I personally wouldnt give out GPS co-ordinates or the exact spot for either a great fishing spot or a great spot in the bush but would generalize the locale on the net , but rather a "pm" or word of mouth to a freind is ok.

Swampy

[Grabeach]

I'll probably have a bit more to say on this at some point, having been through this dilemma offline 20 odd years ago.

For the moment, one comment Caro. Haven't you already created your own precedent with the Landslide Gully and the Kings Tableland passes videos?

[tom_brennan]

Just to add a bit to my earlier brief comment...

From personal experience, even a name is sometimes enough to out a place. Once you have a name, it's much easier to extract information out of people. I've made this mistake before – the next thing I know, the place has been written up in a guide! I've been a lot more careful with names ever since.

Second, wilderness is there partly for exploration. Just because you've found something doesn't mean you need to advertise it. Other people can still have the joy of finding it for themselves. Not that we're talking about publishing track notes here, but there are already enough places with published descriptions that people can get to a level of experience where they can go and discover things for themselves.

I'd compare it to the iconic images of the lower franklin. If these places were not publicised there would be much less interest in conservation.

The Franklin was publicised specifically in order to save it. There are plenty of similar examples of little known or secret places that have been "outed" in order to save them from destruction. I don't have a problem with this. It is the lesser of two evils. I don't think Caro's pass is in this category – I assume it is already well protected.

[Lotsafreshair]

All good comments guys, thanks. If anyone's interested, you can see my decision on my blog.

Just for the record, here's my thinking:

1. Public Safety
As you all know, there are different types of walkers, all with different experience and skills. Some people have a good grasp on their own abilities, some don't. I'm not going to risk giving away information that could potentially lead to people putting themselves and others at risk.

2. Promoting Bushwalking Clubs
Those of you who know me, know that I am a massive advocate for bushwalking clubs. I am so thankful to my club (Sydney Bushies) through which I have learnt almost everything I know about the bush. I have worked and donated a bunch of money and time to help see the future of my club be sustainable and encourage other clubs to do the same.
One of the things that I believe clubs can teach people, apart from travelling and living in the bush safely, is how to care for the bush and encourage greater environmental awareness.

So, basically, my subtle messaging going forward is going to be along the lines of, 'If you want to visit these special places, I encourage you to join a club. Not only will they take you there, but you can learn amazing skills, meet great people and help carry on the tradition of these word-of-mouth places and learn to care for them for future walkers.'

And thanks GraBeach for reminding me about those clips... I haven't looked at them for 18 months and I'd forgotten their content (including a couple of great cameos by YOU!). I made them for the folk in the Bush Club to share. I've now taken them down from the public space.

[GPSGuided]

Not unreasonable to turn it into a club marketing tool and to ensure those being introduced to those areas are being supervised in their approach.

Now, do you consider this forum a club of sort?

[perfectlydark]

Just something to consider, particularly those not so experienced, could safety be considered an issue if detailed tracknotes arent available yet some headstrong noob tries to locate a spot based on bits and peices of info? Obviously im not saying that responsibility doesnt lie with the individual to properly plan a trip (it clearly does) bit are partial bits of information possibly dangerous in the sense that it can tempt the unprepared to make a trip they could potentially getlost in, versus detailed notes that might help them along?

[tom_brennan]

Just something to consider, particularly those not so experienced, could safety be considered an issue if detailed track notes arent available yet some headstrong noob tries to locate a spot based on bits and peices of info? Obviously im not saying that responsibility doesnt lie with the individual to properly plan a trip (it clearly does) bit are partial bits of information possibly dangerous in the sense that it can tempt the unprepared to make a trip they could potentially get lost in, versus detailed notes that might help them along?

The situation at the moment is that the vast majority of places don't have detailed track notes. A lot of them just have bits and pieces of info. And yes, you occasionally do get people wandering off and getting in over their head.

But even if you decided that it was acceptable to have detailed track notes for everywhere, it's clear that it's practically not feasible!

Not unreasonable to turn it into a club marketing tool and to ensure those being introduced to those areas are being supervised in their approach.

Now, do you consider this forum a club of sort?

Err, kind of. Not sure that it's a bushwalking club though!

[GPSGuided]

Err, kind of. Not sure that it's a bushwalking club though!

We've had a discussion on whether this is a community. Now, can BWA be considered to be a club?

club 1 |klʌb|
noun
1 [ treated as sing. or pl. ] an association dedicated to a particular interest or activity

[puredingo]

"I oughta join the club and beat you over the head with it"- Groucho Marx, A day at the races.

But seriously, being a surfer I know only too well the disastrous effects of a secret/sacred spot being exposed by the media or word of mouth. But bushwalking being not exactly a main stream type of sport/hobby you have to ask just how many people will be visiting the area anyway?

People are going to need to fulfil certain requirments for that kind of hardcore walking and from what I've seen not many of the population do....and seems to be getting less.

[perfectlydark]

Fair points tom b, track notes everywhere (even most places) is an impossibility. Was just thinking aloud

[GPSGuided]

People are going to need to fulfil certain requirments for that kind of hardcore walking and from what I've seen not many of the population do....and seems to be getting less.

Hence for the health of the society, there should be an objective to get people moving again, like what the cycling fraternity has done. I agree, much of those off-track locations aren't going to be accessed by the vast majority in any case but can serve to motivate people when they are enticed.

[Lotsafreshair]

Not unreasonable to turn it into a club marketing tool and to ensure those being introduced to those areas are being supervised in their approach.

Now, do you consider this forum a club of sort?

Nice try

[Allchin09]

I can understand when it is necessary to protect unique and unmarked features, but one of my concerns is how do we prevent theses places for being lost or forgotten completely?

KB - I'm not sure this is the place for such comments.

[GPSGuided]

KB: May I summarize that your main disagreement is with this "club" concept as a barrier to the dissemination of information in the bushwalking fraternity?

[perfectlydark]

Thats what I got. Break down the barriers and encourage new people rather than selfishly guard it? If so I heartily agree, if not then I missed the point and apologise

[KANANGRABOYD]

KB: May I summarize that your main disagreement is with this "club" concept as a barrier to the dissemination of information in the bush walking fraternity?

Well somewhat.
I don't like the use of forums like this et al for total marketing of one's self.
I feel we as a forum - of mostly like minded, honest and similar folk that we are and would be happy to share info on places.
Just think of the joy you got, the first time you got to Fed Peak, Watsons Crag, Deep Pass, and a million other little places.
I don't want a million "tourists" invading our special places, but I also don't like when people who are associated with the "fraternity" use their position for total personal gain.
I'm not a bitter basement troll.
Those that know me - know I'm fair, easy going and willing to help anyone and promote the forum and hobby.
I have many very close friends who are Ambassadors or similar within the "fraternity". Andrew Lock, Toby Cogley, Saxon Johns, and the late Dot Butler ( English) to name a few.
I just wish people would be upfront, cut the secretive crap, and understand that what we do - anyone can do.
People like Tom, Dave, Tim Vollmer - they are more than just forum members ( and as you know I have had disagreements with them) - but I hold them in a certain esteem, as they promote the cause and hobby/forum without personal gain. They, like me state their real thoughts. They are not afraid to speak their mind(s), and I think because of this, they have esteemed themselves into a certain category within our "club".

[GPSGuided]

I obviously have been relatively new on this site but with the ideas and guidance from various members, is finding great enjoyments by taking the concept of bushwalking a step deeper than what I have done in the past eg. Off track, harder, faster etc. Further, it's temporally opportunistic to show my city raised Mr13 some essential bushcraft. However, reading the numerous posts in the past, I understand there is a pervasive "with special discoveries, don't tell in public" mentality with at least this BWA "club". Is this not the case? Not something all prescribe to? I obviously have thought this is a mantra up to this point.

[DarrenM]

I just wish people would be upfront, cut the secretive crap, and understand that what we do - anyone can do.
.

This.
As for the talk I often hear about new members of clubs not being privy to secret spots until they have earned stripes etc.....controlling wank and ego IMO.

[roysta]

You aint no Dave Noble, Tom Brennan et al - even though I know you know them all!
My other question is what is your real goal?- to further your career and resume, and production exposure????? or to be an honest representative of the hiking community???.
There is a MASSIVE difference between personal gain thru Youtube exposure and career, and a GENUINE and non-selfish promotion of the outdoors!
Yeah my post is harsh, however if I'm not stating truth, please tell me?.

No, whoever you are (come on, do the unthinkable and post your identity because that places Caro at a distinct disadvantage) , you're not telling the truth, you're just being a vindictive, nasty individual.
Caro isn't a Dave Noble or Tom Brennan ? what does that mean and anyway, what has that got to do with anything?
Personally I think her blogs are informative, even if I don't always agree with them.
There are many aspects of the great outdoors that we all love and what she does is just one part of it.
I've been barred from this forum previously for "comments unbecoming" and frankly I'm really surprised that your personal attack and that's what it is, has been allowed through the gate.
Hey Moderators, are you there?