PLB to use them or not

[GPSGuided]

Quick Q: What's the response time following activation of a personal PLB?

[wayno]

response for a helicopter to get to you? i recall someone mentioning around an hour, the local emergnecy services get notified pretty quickly the biggest delay is the travel time of the helicopter if it can fly in the weather conditions, even if its overseas the delay notifiying the emergency services in the area isnt that long compared to the travel time of the helicopter... assuming there are rescue services in the area you're in.. NZ you can expect a prompt rescue.. when i got rescued it was pre beacons, someone had to run to a hut radio several miles away and the helicopter had to come from about 100k's away and even then it was only a three hour wait, i spent longer waiting in the hospital to be seen (local scout jamboree didnt help)

[GPSGuided]

I was thinking just to the time when the heli is ready to take off or other services ready to move out. 30mins?

[wayno]

depends . you have some helicopter companies are contracted part time by emergency services, they are offering a range of commercial services and emergency SAR is just one function. its subject to availability of helicopter... they have to install the antennas for the PLB's before they take off, if they have a helicopter waiting with a pilot onsite its quick or they may have to wait for the pilot to come in, or they might have to wait for a helicopter to become available or divert one on another job, or in nz there are cases there are no free helicopters in the region, they ahve to divert a helicopter from a different region that normally doesnt cover the area its needed in and fly it to the area and that could take hours...
a lot of areas in nz dont have dedicated rescue helicopters. the bottom of the south island doesnt have a big enough population to be able to afford a dedicated helicopter. but the no of rescues required is very high. luckily there are a number of commercial helicopters that operate because of the large tourist industry in the area. otherwise you'd be looking at significant delays waiting for a helicopter to come from a main centre on the east coast to the alps...
the airforce closed their air base in christchurch and pulled out of the south island, they did have one helicopter stationed at christchurch but i'm not sure if thats the case.
so teh answer to your question isnt a simple one the time into the air can vary greatly... if you set off your beacon you're at the mercy of what is available at the time and when its going to become available...
in a way its an advantage that tourism operators respon to emergencies, their pilots are extremely experienced with the mountains flying them almost daily, they are the people you want flying the helicopter, they can fly the most safely in teh difficult conditions, they can do things with a helicopter that less experienced pilots wouldnt get away with in the mountains, they are putting their lives on the line to do what they do a lot of the time, thers a very fine line they operate on sometimes that right on the limits of whats safe and what can be done with a helicopter. your average lowland pilot often wont hace the same experience and skill level.

[GPSGuided]

Thanks. Yes, I was just thinking of the ideal case. In other words, the inherent in-house response time of the process. Heli availability, weather and other factors are independent variables.

[wayno]

there was a series on nz television following the helicopter pilots down south on rescues, , tehy do incredible things with their helicopters and its a real art locating signals in mountain valleys where teh signal gets bounced around the pilots had to work out how the signals were being bounced around to locate the true source trying to find people sometimes in bad visibility or thick bush, so dont juste sit in the bush thinking the helicopter is going to automatically home in on your signal. i'v seen that happen before , the rescuees didnt make themselves visible , making the search frustrating... you hear the helicopter, get your red langerie on and flash it at the helicopter. because often tehya re loking at a needle in a haystack. have something brighly coloured with you so they can distinguish you from the background colours... all very well blending in to the background but maybe just once you'll need to stand out lie a sore thumb...

[GPSGuided]

Absolutely. It's amazing how SAR crews can spot things so well. Not easy. Movement helps, colour helps. I read on official sites that PLBs don't give a position lock to within a few metres but within a km. I thought that's pretty odd given how precise our personal GPSs work. Maybe it's just old documentation.

[wayno]

i think it depends, not all plb's have a gps in them, they are less accurate.. the gps ones are better but the helicopters juset seem to have a unit in them which points in the direction where its getting the signal from, i didnt see any other info they were receivigin, it may be this system was only for non gps units... and they have something that tells them teh gps coordinates or only some helicopters have them...

[Strider]

I think non-GPS is around 20km accuracy, whereas GPS is <500m. Although the 121.5MHz Homing signal can be useful in narrowing down the search area too, as Way no said this may not be entirely useful.

[GPSGuided]

Always thought the big advantage of a GPS incorporated PLB is its pin point reporting accuracy. You are most likely right in that the older system can only be identified by satellite to within a km or two, the rest would be by vectoring towards the transponder at close range.

[wayno]

and if the old system is just picking up a signal on the satellite that has bounced off a rock face on the other side of a big deep valley from where the beacon is, then the pilot then has to do the detective work to work out whre the beacon is really transmitting from, in that scenario nz could cause a lot of issues,

[GPSGuided]

What's the proportion of activated transponders that could not be found? Very very very low I guess.

[wayno]

in the tv series i was watching, they found the lot, it was just a matter of spending the time searching, they would have been within a couple of k's of them when they had to start actively trying to eyeball the location of the rescuees.
not sure exactly how long they'd have to search but they found them all before they had to turn back with low fuels. maybe up to an extra half hour or hour looking..

[wayno]

removed

[north-north-west]

I3) ... ... ie. if it was bad you would have activated the PLB immediately.

Unless it was so bad you were dead . . .

[Lotsafreshair]

Spare a thought for the poor buggers who have to go searching through rubbish tips for the old series PLBs that people have just thrown out, but have activated somehow. I was at a presentation by AMSA a couple of years ago and they told the story of reports they were getting from aircraft flying over
Kimbriki tip (Terrey Hills, Sydney) which is one of the northern approaches to Sydney Airport. They had to send a couple of people and a receiver device to comb through the rubbish to find it.

Oh and NXNW, yes. That's about as bad as it gets,eh? ... If there's ever a reason not to walk alone... Surely that's it

[vicpres]

As bushwalking's representative on the Australian Search and Rescue Forum, convened by AMSA, that meets every six months, I can highly recommend the AMSA web site as the authoritative source of information on emergency beacons in Australia. They even have a specific site dedicated to beacons. The site advises that a GPS enabled beacon can give a position accurate to less than 120M (often much higher accuracy) whereas for an non-GPS beacon takes an average of 90 minutes and up to 5 hours to give the position with an accuracy of 5km. The rescue time is subject to a wide range of factors including weather, distance S&R has to cover, terrain and whether the beacon and the details of the owners current trip is registered with AMSA or not. The registration information means it is much quicker for AMSA to identify false alerts and where the person/owner may be. Where an emergency contact is included with the registration AMSA can also check with them. It is also worth noting that Australia has probably the best S&R organisation in the world in AMSA and that when an Australian registered beacon is activated anywhere in the world, the activation is registered by the Rescue Coordination Centre (RCC) in Canberra.

As far as when to activate a beacon, all S&R authorities would much prefer that beacon users activate a beacon early, rather than late. Another way of looking at it is that, they would rather be rescuing someone in distress before the situation gets critical than after, and provided the beacon is activated in good faith and with the best of intentions the authorities are not going to be critical. That being said though, there are of course examples, such as the previously referred to bloke in NZ where activation isn't warranted.

At the last meeting I attended we discussed providing information to go on the AMSA web site on what happens not only when a beacon is activated but also what is likely to happen once the S&R team arrives, especially where it as an aircraft.
Some other points of interest are:
* that some of the beacons currently in development and likely to go on sale in the next year or so include the facility for the beacon to be sent a 'message received' notification to assure the activator that their situation has been registered.
* AMSA has agreements in place with satellite phone providers that enables them to determine the position of the phone with pretty good accuracy in the event of an emergency (important when the caller doesn't know where they are)
* Thuraya has a sleeve on the market that turns an iPhone into a satellite phone. Most if not all of the iPhone capabilities such as phone book, SMS, emails etc can be used. Apparently an Android version is under development.

However, it is vital to remember that beacons are purpose designed emergency devices whereas phones are NOT. Beacons are rugged, waterproof, their batteries must be able to send an emergency signal for at least 24 hours and their batteries have a long shelf life.

[findbuddha]

That being said though, there are of course examples, such as the previously referred to bloke in NZ where activation isn't warranted.

As these examples have been the subject of much debate, perhaps it would be good for AMSA to provide us with some clearer guidelines? Yes, this bloke probably should have told his emergency contacts to wait a reasonable period after his ETA before contacting SAR. However, in the hypothetical situation that someone is NOT in a life threatening situation, but knows absolutely that a search WILL be launched for them, would AMSA prefer that they simply wait to be found rather than activating the PLB?

[Swifty]

Unless it was so bad you were dead . . .

That is a very good point NNW. The virtue of a PLB signal is that it is not ambiguous. It means " come and get me, I'm in trouble!".
In the broad picture, it doesn't matter how many false alarms or "unjustified" uses of the PLB there are. I'm sure the overriding thing is that some lives that really were in danger, will be saved. The cost of chasing up frivolous or unnecessary distress calls is absorbed by the cases that really matter. So when I hear (quite commonly on our forum) chastisements of people setting these things off unnecessarily, I don't get too upset about it. Statistically that is bound to happen no matter what, if we want to save those people truly in trouble.

[vicpres]

That being said though, there are of course examples, such as the previously referred to bloke in NZ where activation isn't warranted.

As these examples have been the subject of much debate, perhaps it would be good for AMSA to provide us with some clearer guidelines? However, in the hypothetical situation that someone is NOT in a life threatening situation, but knows absolutely that a search WILL be launched for them, would AMSA prefer that they simply wait to be found rather than activating the PLB?

The problem with providing guidelines to follow in emergency situation is that the possibilities are almost endless, and what is clear to some is not necessarily so to others. Similarly what constitutes an emergency is open to interpretation too. The S&R authorities are not going to penalise or criticise someone for setting off a beacon with the best of intention, believing that they are in an emergency situation, or believe that such a situation is imminent.

As far as your hypothetical is concerned, it isn't hypothetical as I am directly aware of such an event in Victoria. I am not able to provide the full story, however a group became overdue and was not going to make it 'out' by their deadline. They know the family of at least one party member would hit the panic button, likely generating an alert, if not a search. The group knew they were absolutely OK, and would be however those expecting them didn't and couldn't know this. They set off their beacon, AMSA notified Victoria Police S&R, who responded and quickly and efficiently located the party. The quickly and efficiently bit would not have happened without the beacon activation, but the rest would of the situation have, and more fuss resulted. Neither AMSA nor Victoria Police would criticise this party for activating their beacon. They may criticise for other actions or omissions, such as lack of planning, insufficient food, not leaving details of their walk with an appropriate emergency contact.

The LAST thing S&R authorities want is for people to not use their beacons or wait too long because of the fear of embarrassment or the possibility that they might not really be in an emergency.

[stry]

I am in the "don't hit the switch unless you are in real trouble" camp.

My thinking is very uncomplicated (on this). We all make sure that someone at home is aware of our plans. If we are in serious trouble the beacon is activated.

Conversely we are not in trouble (or dead) if the beacon is not activated. If we are late and the beacon hasn't been activated, we are OK, and our delayed appearance is of no consequences. If we are dead, finding (or not finding) the body has no effect on the outcome.

Simple - no alarm - all good - Wait ! Alarm - deep trouble.

I don't see all the snailtrails, message facilities, and other bells and whistles provided by the likes of Spot as having any practical value, except in potentially speeding up the location of a body. I struggle with the idea that anyone needs that sort of cloying, facebookish contact during what we like to regard as a wilderness experience. Sorry, slight diversion from thread, but I do think that it is related.

I should add, Chris that I have been in the situation you describe, in that a family member was going to hit the panic button regardless. Fortunately it was managed without resorting to SAR or a beacon. My emergency contacts would NOT do that and I think it behoves all of us to ensure that our contacts have sufficient understanding to avoid such "panic button" actions.

That possibility does not change my view that activation should only take place in dire circumstances, and that the best person to make that decision is the person with the beacon.

[GPSGuided]

Worry, is inherent in human nature, one that afflicts a good majority of the population. Hence SPOT works.

[stry]

Worry, is inherent in human nature, one that afflicts a good majority of the population. Hence SPOT works.

I agree - "works" is a wide ranging term in this context .

[madmacca]

As far as your hypothetical is concerned, it isn't hypothetical as I am directly aware of such an event in Victoria. I am not able to provide the full story, however a group became overdue and was not going to make it 'out' by their deadline. They know the family of at least one party member would hit the panic button, likely generating an alert, if not a search. The group knew they were absolutely OK, and would be however those expecting them didn't and couldn't know this. They set off their beacon, AMSA notified Victoria Police S&R, who responded and quickly and efficiently located the party. The quickly and efficiently bit would not have happened without the beacon activation, but the rest would of the situation have, and more fuss resulted. Neither AMSA nor Victoria Police would criticise this party for activating their beacon. They may criticise for other actions or omissions, such as lack of planning, insufficient food, not leaving details of their walk with an appropriate emergency contact.

I would agree with the party activating their beacon in situations like this - it takes the search out of Search and Rescue. But in situations like this where a group has a choice of where (and to some extent when) to activate the beacon, I would hope that they move to a cleared area with a few hours of daylight remaining, to avoid having to winch in a rescuer and reduce the risk to aircrew.

[nq111]

As far as your hypothetical is concerned, it isn't hypothetical as I am directly aware of such an event in Victoria. I am not able to provide the full story, however a group became overdue and was not going to make it 'out' by their deadline. They know the family of at least one party member would hit the panic button, likely generating an alert, if not a search. The group knew they were absolutely OK, and would be however those expecting them didn't and couldn't know this. They set off their beacon, AMSA notified Victoria Police S&R, who responded and quickly and efficiently located the party. The quickly and efficiently bit would not have happened without the beacon activation, but the rest would of the situation have, and more fuss resulted. Neither AMSA nor Victoria Police would criticise this party for activating their beacon. They may criticise for other actions or omissions, such as lack of planning, insufficient food, not leaving details of their walk with an appropriate emergency contact.

That confirms my original thoughts posted on this perfectly. Good to hear it from someone with some skin in the game.

Key thinking as i see is once in the bush it doesn't matter what you should have done, only what is the best way out from that point forward. An efficient search for a duffer beats a major search for a duffer (and admit it, we are all duffers sometimes ).