The cold hard facts of freezing to death

[Strider]

Strobe isn't much use if no one is looking for you MD..

[Moondog55]

True I'll save the money then as a PLB is way down on my list of needs ( but you may know my thoughts on that already) I think if I get into a situation where I need one I'll be well dead before the rescue arrives so no point at all in setting one off

[wayno]

True I'll save the money then as a PLB is way down on my list of needs ( but you may know my thoughts on that already) I think if I get into a situation where I need one I'll be well dead before the rescue arrives so no point at all in setting one off

well helicopters can often arrive within an hour of setting of a PLB , if it a straight forward injury situation with reasonable weather. your chances of surviving if you have a PLB are usually incredibly good...

[Strider]

A life or death situation doesn't necessarily start out as one.

[GPSGuided]

I think probably the PLB, because without searchers notified and looking for him, he could tweet on his whistle or flash his strobe indefinitely, but with no one out there to hear or see it'd be fruitless.

I agree. In that article, I didn't get the impression that the strobe did much while the whistle was only of value when the rescuers got near. Yet, there's every possibility that the rescuer could have homed in on him using his PLB. In more general terms, I guess the strobe may be more valuable in an air rescue scenario while the whistle is to attract a ground party. Starting a fire/smoke signal may be even better if possible.

[wayno]

strobes use is limited in forests compared to a whistle.
i've never seen strobes mentioned in NZ bushcraft instruction, but whistles are recommended...

[Moondog55]

I think probably the PLB, because without searchers notified and looking for him, he could tweet on his whistle or flash his strobe indefinitely, but with no one out there to hear or see it'd be fruitless.

I agree. In that article, I didn't get the impression that the strobe did much while the whistle was only of value when the rescuers got near. Yet, there's every possibility that the rescuer could have homed in on him using his PLB. In more general terms, I guess the strobe may be more valuable in an air rescue scenario while the whistle is to attract a ground party. Starting a fire/smoke signal may be even better if possible.

Given the original post I don't think I would be able to light a big signal fire in those conditions. And if I could then rescue wouldn't be needed, same goes for the situation in the second link.

Given the current thoughts about gear I wonder when the "10 essentials" are going to become the "15 Must carries" and include a GPS / PLB / Sat phone and other electronic stuff??

[GPSGuided]

Given the original post I don't think I would be able to light a big signal fire in those conditions. And if I could then rescue wouldn't be needed, same goes for the situation in the second link.

I agree, hence the "if" in my earlier statement. I always have that image of Robinson Crusoe and his ready made fire stack, waiting for that passing ship.

[baeurabasher]

True I'll save the money then as a PLB is way down on my list of needs ( but you may know my thoughts on that already) I think if I get into a situation where I need one I'll be well dead before the rescue arrives so no point at all in setting one off

This could be considered reckless behavior. If you had a stroke, or a broken leg, you could survive for hours/days before you died a painful death. In this time a helicopter could get to you. Still, if you value your life so little, why am i bothering to comment..... It's all up to each individual. I carry one for my families peace of mind if nothing else. I guess if i had no family worrying about me I may not bother either.

I dont think a SAR team would be too pleased with you either.

[Moondog55]

True I'll save the money then as a PLB is way down on my list of needs ( but you may know my thoughts on that already) I think if I get into a situation where I need one I'll be well dead before the rescue arrives so no point at all in setting one off

This could be considered reckless behavior. If you had a stroke, or a broken leg, you could survive for hours/days before you died a painful death. In this time a helicopter could get to you. Still, if you value your life so little, why am i bothering to comment..... It's all up to each individual. I carry one for my families peace of mind if nothing else. I guess if i had no family worrying about me I may not bother either.

I dont think a SAR team would be too pleased with you either.

At my time of life with all my family grown it isn't as big a deal as when I was young and had people dependent upon me, and while I value my life highly I also value my independence more

[baeurabasher]

Fair enough Moondog, like I said it's up to each individual.

I am curious though, how does carrying a PLB make you dependent?? It's only there for a life or death situation.

[Moondog55]

It's only my opinion but the safety factor of carrying a PLB makes some people take on trips and climbs they are not trained/experienced or physically capable of ( Deep Blue water use is not a factor here ) it decreases the perceived risk. Not only that but actual risk is needed for physical and spiritual well being, if the risk is small the feeling of accomplishment is diminished Some things are worth risking your life for.
.
Carrying a PLB when engaged in paid work would be a totally different thing and if I was engaged in an industry where I was at risk then I would carry one and use it at need

[baeurabasher]

Interesting point MD, but I think I get the direction your coming from.

[Strider]

I don't get where you're coming from MD, and likely never will. A PLB is a tool to preserve life and is no different to wearing a seatbelt in a car or lifejacket on a boat.

[Moondog55]

Strider I don't believe that life is worth preserving at all/any cost. Quality of life is what I see as important and I perceive the right to engage in risk as part of that quality of life

I could argue that while seatbelts have saved many lives they may inadvertently decreased the quality of the life they have saved in a number of instances. Rather be dead than a vegetable is all I am saying

[GPSGuided]

I could argue that while seatbelts have saved many lives they may inadvertently decreased the quality of the life they have saved in a number of instances. Rather be dead than a vegetable is all I am saying

The development of safety equipments have further adversely affected natural selection. That's a fact!

[sim1oz]

I get what you are saying, MD. For us, with a young family of very dependent children, our PLB is the last stop in a line of risk management strategies. I hope we never have to use it! I might view things very differently in 30 years time. By then, we might be more likely to carry a SATphone so that we can call, explain what has happened and say goodbye.

And, MD, it will be coming to the snow with us...

[wayno]

theres a thread already for this topic on whether to use PLB's or not

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15324&start=30&hilit=plb

[Moondog55]

Yep I seem to remember participating heavily there, but always room for more discussion.

To get back on track sometimes calamity is simply the result of poor decision making somewhere along the track, whether it is leaving the car or not packing enough gear for the trip. In terms of decision making there isn't much difference between freezing to death in a Northern winter or dieing of heat stroke and dehydration in a Southern summer

[Giddy_up]

A strobe light suspended just above a space blanket with the lens directed at the blanket can be seen for miles in low light situations, obviously it is magnified as it gets darker. For an chopper rescue this would enable a helicopter to pinpoint many miles out as to your exact location.

[GPSGuided]

Back to hypothermia. Can chocolate or other high caloric food, lots of it, push back hypothermia? Curious whether death by chocolate is better than hypothermic death?

[Giddy_up]

Back to hypothermia. Can chocolate or other high caloric food, lots of it, push back hypothermia? Curious whether death by chocolate is better than hypothermic death?

I doubt that chocolate would raise your metabolic rate high enough to stave off hypothermia, I'm really happy to be proven wrong on this though

[GPSGuided]

Whilst it may not raise one's metabolic rate, but I am curious how much food, or rather lack of it, played a part in those who died of hypothermia? Had they been well loaded and continued to be supplemented with high caloric food, could they have significantly improved their survival?

[wayno]

in some cases it could be a factor , but in others its simply too cold for survival regardless what you eat
if you run short of or run out of food your metabolism will eventually slow down and generate less energy, combine that scenario with the cold then you'r increasing your risk of hypothermia
in NZ NO ONE EVER DIES FROM STARVATION in the mountains,, if they arent injured and can keep moving and run low of or run out of food, one of three things happen, they make it out of the mountains, they get rescued if overdue or they have signalled for a rescue. or cold weather/ being wet may contribute to killing them faster than if they still had enough food...

[Giddy_up]

Shivering would be better than a block of chocolate I think, once you stop shivering its all down hill.

[wayno]

being wet is a major factor in whether you get hypothermia and how fast it advances.., water conducts the cold up to fourteen times faster than air if you're saturated in water

[GPSGuided]

in NZ NO ONE EVER DIES FROM STARVATION in the mountains...

I don't think starvation would be a concern but rather an inadequate supply of food, along with progressive dehydration.

[wayno]

dehydration doesnt kill people in nz. lack of water is never that big a problem

[GPSGuided]

dehydration doesnt kill people in nz. lack of water is never that big a problem

Never say never. It's always a factor in shock and subsequent death.

[wayno]

be a pretty minor factor in nz