Mapping out handy locations on bushwalk.com

[wildwalks]

Aside from the set of rules, moderation largely depends on luck as it stands.. Look back and you'll find that jumping up and down doesn't really help. There are standing topics on here that (in spreading use) effectively break forum rules.

Hi Nuts
Are we talking about rule 24?? If so then please report them and we can look at them.
As we well know the moderation team is small and does not even try to read all the posts or threads.
I am not aware of any posts breaking rule 24?? let alone that we have refused to remove them after been reported.
If anyone else feels strongly about this issue I am happy to work with you to clean them up.

It takes a community of people committed to the rules to make the rules both relevant and stand.

Matt

[perfectlydark]

Thats a good idea too, the invite system

[wildwalks]

Thats a good idea too, the invite system

Interesting -- you could have an accountable invite system. So you can actually see publicly who allowed who access. eg Wildwalks was granted access by perfectlydark. Then if we discover wildwalks doing something stupid then we can question the suitability of all the permissions from all of Perfectlydark's approval. a web based peer pressure accountability system. Sounds interesting (messing and difficult) - but interesting.

thanks

Matt

[perfectlydark]

That would be very useful. Looks like you may have a bit of work on your hands there matt!

[Zone-5]

http://bushwalk.com/wiki/index.php/Winterbrook_Falls

This above is a great format to work with..

Thats a good idea too, the invite system

I agree that there has to be a restrictive element and some form of moderation delay before it's posted so that the admin get a chance to look at it first before others chime in..

Show me a map of areas I'm familiar with and I'm sure I can only show you what to remove.

This is the type of map I was thinking for the new bit. Click on the map to reveal location points of interest..

[Zone-5]

As we well know the moderation team is small and does not even try to read all the posts or threads.

I thought there would be a stampede to become a Mod, so what's stopping all of you? Here's your chance?

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4382

[Nuts]

[
Are we talking about rule 24?? If so then please report them and we can look at them.
As we well know the moderation team is small and does not even try to read all the posts or threads.
I am not aware of any posts breaking rule 24?? let alone that we have refused to remove them after been reported.
If anyone else feels strongly about this issue I am happy to work with you to clean them up.

It takes a community of people committed to the rules to make the rules both relevant and stand.

Matt

Well, back to the beginning, there-in lies the problem. You have a rule governing information for sensitive areas yet I can assure you, (and no disrespect to you here) that for the posts that make me baulk, neither yourself nor the other moderators (the ones that actually do anything..) have the local insight to administer it. For these places I can think of a handful of people who could. Their conclusions are probably those already available on maps

Do you have the Overland Track even distantly in mind? That would be a nice cherry in the portfolio . How about I wait till people start tagging things and then let you know where we butt heads?

Maybe Zone-5 can moderate

In short, i'm sorry, I don't feel I have much to add that is positive. I can simply wait till you guys, better versed in these sorts of things, work it out. I really am ready to be convinced but so far nobody has done so..

[north-north-west]

I am thinking that if we are going to document anything on this map that it should probably only be stuff that we are happy to be open in the public area.

Yeah, but who is 'we' in this case? That's what it comes down to - who makes the decision with regard to each individual piece of information?
I can't agree with Zone-5's comment about "just do it and do well with moderating it", as it puts too much onus onto the moderators. Even for the moderation team to come up with an acceptable set of guidelines for themselves to ensure a reasonably standard assessment would be a lot of work.

I'm with doogs on this one - what we have now works well, people can decide on an individual basis what information they give and how to give it.

[wildwalks]

Well, back to the beginning, there-in lies the problem. You have a rule governing information for sensitive areas yet I can assure you, (and no disrespect to you here) that for the posts that make me baulk, neither yourself nor the other moderators (the ones that actually do anything..) have the local insight to administer it. For these places I can think of a handful of people who could. Their conclusions are probably those already available on maps

Moderators don't really need local insight to make these calls - but would need to rely on advice from trusted people who know better -- this is true with many mod decisions.
Happy for you to 'go nuts' (sorry just could not resist) and get into doing some of this moderation -- maybe we can do a quick skype call one night to talk through any general ideas etc.
I don't need to be involved in ever moderation decision. (PM me if you want to chat more)

Do you have the Overland Track even distantly in mind? That would be a nice cherry in the portfolio . How about I wait till people start tagging things and then let you know where we butt heads?

hehe -- not what I am thinking about with this project -- but I have been asked to write (yet another) guide book for the OLT -- would likely do something similar to what we did with the 6FT website if the project goes ahead.

In short, i'm sorry, I don't feel I have much to add that is positive. I can simply wait till you guys, better versed in these sorts of things, work it out. I really am ready to be convinced but so far nobody has done so..

You have done a lot just by joining in the conversation and raising issues -- thanks.

Matt

[Nuts]

I find it odd that it's mostly Tasmanians having shown concern. It's a journey for you but I could try to show you how big a task it will be with a long days walk?

As for moderating, er- NO! thanks As I said, I couldn't have seen what has come already. Besides that i'd not want to clash with any considered management- that for public info it should come as no surprise is designed to manage- in busy or fragile areas- manage people.
Sure, that might offend someones sense of adventure, freedom, individuality? somehow but that's how it is.. you have to spend time to find the things that just can't handle the masses.

If you come up with a workable system maybe take it to the park services?

I'm most concerned that when those (down here) with the best 'handy spots' won't cooperate there'll just be an endless number of interesting finds just off 'my' track!

[wildwalks]

I find it odd that it's mostly Tasmanians having shown concern.

I just think we show concern in different ways. I am concerned as are other mainlanders -- Some people are happy to keep chatting to see if we can find a solution -- this does not mean that we want data published in breach of rule 24 - infact it means we want to find a way to protect rule 24 in a world where it is get very much harder.

If you come up with a workable system maybe take it to the park services?

If we come up with a solution then I would be keen to share it with anyone willing to use it.

I'm most concerned that those with the best 'handy spots' won't cooperate and there'll just be an endless number of interesting finds just off 'my' track!

User acceptance is a whole other issue. I don't think we are talking about the 'best' unknown spots - we are talking about huts, water spot and cliffs -- things that are not secret but handy to know about before you arrive.
As for stuff in remote areas then they should not be able to be added because, if we build a system, we will have found a solution that allows us to block these points.

lets see.

Matt

[stepbystep]

To be honest, the more i think about it the less I like it.

I dislike the wildwalks app, monetising knowledge that should be shared freely amongst like minded people. I see this as an extension of that, and dislike it.
Our natural areas are a refuge, an escape. Organising, categorising, packaging and selling these as 'products' are counter-intuitive to me.

Your thought bubbles that you may in fact be able to secure the knowledge base is fantasyland stuff. Leave Tassie out of it please, as nuts says there are places within 15mins of the OLT that are far too sensitive for explorers with a device based bravery.

Don't do it Matt.waste of time...

[Zone-5]

Maybe Zone-5 can moderate

In my quest to find a great example of what I suggested I found a site that actually gives me all the file info that I will need for way-point POI in Aussie and Tassie walks. It's OS based so I suppose our Aussie limitations don't apply there..

It's actually what I was looking for here when I joined this site.. oh well..

For me this guarded argument has now become rather an academic one, so I'll sit back and let you guys get on with the next dance I suppose, the 'deck chair shuffle'?

..the world has already moved on ahead..

[stepbystep]

Care to share?

Progress huh? Gotta love it :/

[Zone-5]

Care to share?

Sorry, I'm not at liberty to tell, you understand!

We don't want them stupid electric city folk stamping all over our spots now do we!

[perfectlydark]

Stepbystep I am a little confused by your position on this. You are concerned that information should be shared freely, but also that it shouldnt be shared?
Slightly off topic but wildwalks is not only a good resource but helps start people out in the hobby (myself included). I saw this project as the next step. Its not aimed at total amatures but provides some resources that some might find handy in planning a trip. If sensative areas are to be left out, im ok with that. But if they are so sensative you.probably should be thinking twice about going there yourself, planning or not damage is damage right? (Do you wonder what other more hardcore bushwalkers think of anyone that goes there?)

[stepbystep]

Stepbystep I am a little confused by your position on this. You are concerned that information should be shared freely, but also that it shouldnt be shared?
Slightly off topic but wildwalks is not only a good resource but helps start people out in the hobby (myself included). I saw this project as the next step. Its not aimed at total amatures but provides some resources that some might find handy in planning a trip. If sensative areas are to be left out, im ok with that. But if they are so sensative you.probably should be thinking twice about going there yourself, planning or not damage is damage right? (Do you wonder what other more hardcore bushwalkers think of anyone that goes there?)

Sorry there is no irony emoticon...

Zoney-5's attitude from the start has been far from inclusive or participatory when his very simple premise was challenged. I actually don't believe he has such a link unless he's thinking of everytrail or some such?

I can see this 'project' as another way to monetise this forum. When I joined information was freely exchanged in a friendly manner via PM. That continues.

I've invited Zone-5 to set up an example but all we get is a very condescending attitude. Anyhoo, I've said my bit, enjoy your devices and progress!

[frenchy_84]

I actually don't believe he has such a link unless he's thinking of everytrail or some such?

My guess is that it is OSM

[neilmny]

.............As for moderating, er- NO! thanks ..........

Interesting Nuts, you've already been doing a pretty good job of it.

...............there are places within 15mins of the OLT that are far too sensitive for explorers with a device based bravery.............

So you have to be brave to walk without a GPS and if you're brave it's OK to enter sensitive areas.........what next

Do you guys ever read what you write.

[perfectlydark]

Its off topic the whole gps users are inferior to the might of map and compass.. true hardcore bushwalkers navigate by starting and the stars and channelling the earth spirit...

[doogs]

Do you guys ever read what you write.

Rarely, I prefer to read what others write as they are far more knowledgeable and literate on the subject. Try it, you may find it enlightening:
http://www.parks.tas.gov.au/indeX.aspX?base=667
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12710922
http://www.crctourism.com.au/wms/upload ... Plants.pdf
ftp://roswell.sdsu.edu/pub/IEMM/Recreat ... mpacts.pdf
http://eprints.utas.edu.au/2778/1/Manag ... Impact.pdf
*this is a very very very very small selection of scientific reports written on the subject.

[doogs]

Its off topic the whole gps users are inferior to the might of map and compass.. true hardcore bushwalkers navigate by starting and the stars and channelling the earth spirit...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Try reading some of the reports above on the effects of increased visitor numbers to fragile alpine environments where there is no infrastructure in place to deal with them. Nobody is trying to stop anyone exploring with a GPS, they are just suggesting that you share anything privately rather than publicly. This isn't trying to stop anyone visiting an area it is just doing so with the consideration of the National Park/Wilderness at the forefront. Please remember again that these areas are not primarily set up for our recreation. They are set up to conserve biodiversity, ecosystems etc, our recreation is just the cherry on top of the cake so to speak.

[tastrax]

Plenty of other great articles (many available for download) at the International Journal of Wilderness.

http://ijw.org/

also lots more here

http://leopold.wilderness.net/pubs.cfm

[neilmny]

Its off topic the whole gps users are inferior to the might of map and compass.. true hardcore bushwalkers navigate by starting and the stars and channelling the earth spirit...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Try reading some of the reports above on the effects of increased visitor numbers to fragile alpine environments where there is no infrastructure in place to deal with them. Nobody is trying to stop anyone exploring with a GPS, they are just suggesting that you share anything privately rather than publicly. This isn't trying to stop anyone visiting an area it is just doing so with the consideration of the National Park/Wilderness at the forefront. Please remember again that these areas are not primarily set up for our recreation. They are set up to conserve biodiversity, ecosystems etc, our recreation is just the cherry on top of the cake so to speak.

Sounds fair to me Doogs, thanks for that, though I don't think that anyone, even us club footed north islanders, have been advocating anything else.

[Nuts]

Able to see anything else? Like any possible link to concern over increased access to sensitive areas or unhelpful info.
And no, a good moderator might have a chance to save impending implosion of yet another frenzied newb.

[wildwalks]

I dislike the wildwalks app, monetising knowledge that should be shared freely amongst like minded people. I see this as an extension of that, and dislike it.

Interesting - was not proposing that the data be for sale.
I am curious to know a bit more about you concerns about me selling access to walks on the wildwalks App. It seems no different to selling maps or guide books - or are you suggesting that all knowledge should be freely shared (including books and maps)?
All the information on the app is freely downloadable from the website with topomaps and all -- the fee for the App is to help offset the cost of development.
thanks
Matt

[Zone-5]

I actually don't believe he has such a link unless he's thinking of everytrail or some such?

My guess is that it is OSM

Yes, and others as well.

Here is a sneek peek at the map contents of my eTrex 20. Hema raster images are in another folder not shown.

[stepbystep]

duplicate post....

[stepbystep]

I dislike the wildwalks app, monetising knowledge that should be shared freely amongst like minded people. I see this as an extension of that, and dislike it.

Interesting - was not proposing that the data be for sale.
I am curious to know a bit more about you concerns about me selling access to walks on the wildwalks App. It seems no different to selling maps or guide books - or are you suggesting that all knowledge should be freely shared (including books and maps)?
All the information on the app is freely downloadable from the website with topomaps and all -- the fee for the App is to help offset the cost of development.
thanks
Matt

Oh it's not you, it's me. When I joined this forum it was far friendlier. there was no advertising, it 'felt' nicer....that is all.

[Zone-5]

I've invited Zone-5 to set up an example but all we get is a very condescending attitude.

..I think you are confusing my total disbelief at the lack of invention here!