Take enough salt!

[mikethepike]

Apparently a couple of years ago an EPIRB/helicopter callout in Tasmania was activated by someone suffering from physical weakness resulting from sodium (salt) deficiency. Admittedly this was the victim's self-diagnosis but I can believe it as it can be very debilitating. In my case, I was walking across button grass plains in hot weather and I found myself constantly transferring salt from my brow to mouth by the back of my hand and suffering a weakness that energy bars couldn't resolve (and you sense this would be the case). That evening I went though my supplies looking for anything salty and was alarmed to see how little sodium most packaged dehydrated foods have - they seem to pride themselves as for their low salt content. These products generally contain little more than 200mg sodium/100g which is fine under normal living conditions but I believe that walking in hot weather requires a dietary sodium content 4 times that. On top of this, bushwalking staples such as oats, rice and pastas are very low in sodium. Fortunately I had packed a couple of salty food items (I wasn't carrying salt for leeches as many people do) which was lucky as strong leg cramps before tea that night only served to confirm my earlier diagnosis.
I'd appreciate any feedback (suitably salty).
Mike

[scockburn]

I have come across a type of salt called Celic Sea Salt. I had to look in a few health food shops but eventually located it.I was given it by an experienced walker when I was suddenly debilitated by a terrible cramp attack. Worked wonders and quickly and I could feel the cramp going within a minute. I've not had that reaction before. Now this could be just because it was "salt" but it sure worked quickly and I've taken it ever since. SC

[stu]

Not sure of the salt content off hand, but after a long day my first course of dinner is usually a cup-a-soup & crackers which seems to feed the salt monster within. I usually take some sweet chilli sauce along to add a bit of additional flavour to these as they can be a little bland. I certainly find sweet cravings give way to savoury cravings late in a big day. I always take extra cup-a-soups as emergency rations.

[corvus]

To help alleviate cramps I have found that a couple of calcium and magnesiuum tablets really work dont ask my why they just do also Staminade is a good Electrolite replacement easy to take in water or as a spoonfull dry
Salty nuts help and number one keep hydrated it is so easy espcially in the rain and snow to forget to keep up your water intake.
c

[corvus]

Like stuboling I also tend to have COS rather than tea or coffee at the end of my days walk and I believe this helps alleviate my sodium craving.
c

[Speculator]

Is there any actual research to back this up? I'd dispute claims that you need to add significant amounts of salt to much of anything these days, the sodium content in most foods is actually higher than it needs to be, even a Mars bar has nearly 100mg. Maybe the food walkers carry is different, I'd concede that, but I think comparing it to normal day-to-day foods is probably not a good comparison, as I'm pretty sure there's more in packaged food to act as a preservative. Mind you, I don't have any research to back that up either.

L8r.

[johnw]

I also tend to have COS rather than tea or coffee

I must be getting thick. I've only just worked out that COS is cup of soup . Here I was wondering how a type of lettuce could be successfully used as an infusion or as salt replacement .

Something we've taken as a regular snack on longer walks are those small packets of Mame noodles which taste very salty (and I think are probably high sodium content).

[tas-man]

Reading this topic brought back into memory an experience on my last extended walk along the South Coast Track last year. I generally use my walking as an excuse to indulge in my favourite Rum & Rasin dark chocolate, but on this trip lost interest in it after the day over the Ironbounds and found my taste buds were looking for savoury, salty items. I had taken a 4 pack of salted macadamia nuts and these were my favourite snack for the remainder of the trip. I think I still had two unopened blocks of chocolate at the finish. So our bodies seem to be able to direct our intake to what it needs through our taste cravings.

[Nuts]

You would have had no prob's with finding salt... Just there to your right?

[sthughes]

Bacon is salty - eggs and bacon for breakfast should do it

[tas-man]

You would have had no prob's with finding salt... Just there to your right?

You're RIGHT!
Didn't think of that at the time! Now that I recall it, I didn't have any problems with leeches that trip, probably due to the amount of salt that built up in the socks & boots from both sweat and seawater immersion

[ben.h]

Being more of a mountain biker (obsessed) than a hiker, this is subject I know a bit about.
On a typical ride I perspire between 1 and 1.5 litres of sweat per hour on a mild day and on an all day ride, fluid and electrolyte replacement becomes pretty important.

Water: Very important (I generally drink about 1 litre per hour while riding), however, you can over-hydrate by drinking too much water and this is very bad (hyponatremia: your blood is composed of too much water in comparison to the electrolytes present).

Gatorade (the powdered, mix up yourself stuff): Not all sports / electrolytic drinks are created equal!
I mix it up about twice as strong as the instructions say (quite syrupy and sweet) and generally only take a mix of this stuff when I plan on riding for more than 4 hours.
The reason I choose Gatorade is bang for buck:

• Gatorade (per 100gm)
  
  • Energy: 110kJ
  • Carbohydrate: 6.3g
  • Sodium: 47mg
  • Potassium: 22.5mg
  • Magnesium: 0mg
• Staminade (per 100gm)
  
  • Energy: 86kJ
  • Carbohydrate: 5g
  • Sodium: 23mg
  • Potassium: 19.5mg
  • Magnesium: 2.4mg
• Powerade (per 100gm)
  
  • Energy: 99kJ
  • Carbohydrate: 5.7g
  • Sodium: 30mg
  • Potassium: 13.4mg
  • Magnesium: 0mg

Magnesium: Not all magnesium supplements are created equal! I've suffered occasional cramps and always thought that I hadn't replaced my electrolytes fast enough or was pushing my muscles beyond their limits, however, this turned out to be false. While taking "tramadol" for a pinched nerve, I would cramp minutes into a ride, not good! It turns out that this drug flushes your body of magnesium. Now, you may notice that Staminade (as shown above) contains magnesium, however, this amount is so small it may as well be nil. Recommended daily requirements for men is 420mg and research shows (can't remember the paper where I am citing this study from... do a search for magnesium and endurance athletes if you are interested) that endurance athletes may require up to 900mg per day. Ok, enough rambling... I now do on bike stretches and take 300mg of magnesium (Blackmores BIO Magnesium) a day and on days where I plan on doing a long ride (a couple of hours and above) I take 600mg. Needless to say, I rarely ever cramp no matter how hard I push since taking magnesium.

So, for endurance I recommend: water, electrolytic sport drink, magnesium.

Now that I've bored everyone by explaining my electrolyte and fluid replacement strategies, I might as well bore you all with my other dietary habits and sports dribble.

Muscle soreness and DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness... you know the next day you are fine, then two days later you are really sore!): First: Fish oil - get a good one (again, I use Blackmores as it's highly concentrated). Fish oil helps your body to repair muscles rapidly and lowers cholesterol so it is a good thing to do anyway.

Whey Protein. I use "Aussie Bodies - Perfect Protein" (again the bang for buck thing). Mix up a protein drink as soon as you can after exercise as protein is the main component needed to build muscle and if taken within your glycogen repletion window (i.e. soon after finishing exercise) it can rapidly repair muscle and prevent muscle soreness (I suffer no muscle soreness these days, however, this is both due to conditioning and taking protein when I've had a hard ride (or particularly long hike).

Finally, muscle recovery: After exercise, your body exhibits what is known as the "glycogen repletion window". In the first couple of hours after exercise, your muscles are screaming for carbs. According to research (sorry, I don't have references), carbohydrates are turned into muscle glycogen at 3 times the normal rate during this window. I normally eat rice or pasta during this time (also note that some "recovery" drinks such as Whey Protein drinks have added carbohydrates specifically for this reason).

This sort of regime allows me to back up day after day of 1 to 2 hour bush rides (plus a half to full day ride on a weekend) without soreness, cramp or being unusually fatigued.

If that wasn't enough torture, here are a few more references:
http://www.cptips.com/toc.htm (scroll down for the table of contents... more nutritional info than you can poke a stick at)
http://www.roadbikerider.com/cramps.htm
http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/articl ... ers--18068

Oh, just one more quick thing: Vitamin I (ibuprofen) is amazing stuff, I always keep some in my camelbak. Anti-inflammatory... would've been great for james' knees over the western arthurs

Whew. That was longer than I expected!

[lexharris]

I agree, many packaged foods don't have enough salt in them these days and you feel it on long warm days. On a recent trip around the South West Cape circuit I found I was losing endurance and appetite even though I was drinking plenty of (fresh) water. I was craving salty foods and nothing I was carrying (even cup-a-soups) seemed salty enough. Finally I filled a small bottle with sea water and took a sip of that every now and then, followed by a swig of fresh water. Felt heaps better right away. Used it in my cooking as well, everything started tasting a lot better too.

[Area54]

Ben H., we are in similar camps here mate.

I do a lot of solo long distance mtb rides with my camping gear in a BOB trailer, usually around 35kg including trailer. Spend between 6-12 hours in the saddle, so I echo what you've mentioned about rehydration, protein/carbs and electrolyte balance etc.

One of the extras I add to my nighttime routine is massage. This helps to flush out the waste products in the muscle, increases the blood supply to the area, relaxes the muscle and gives you a nice warm feeling in the muscle - just the thing before bed.

I like the taste of salt in my food and cooking, however too much and your body excretes it naturally in a number of ways - one bad way is out the skin, turns your camelbak and clothing into giant salt licks. Zippers corrode and jam, salty crusts form around the shoulder and waist straps, I've even had microphone jacks on my radio grow verdigris!


Cramps are the big thing to avoid, yet salt (or lack thereof) is not the only contributing factor in the prevention matrix.

[lexharris]

If you're walking near the coast then seawater will provide Mg as well as Na (ratio about 1:10):
http://ozreef.org/library/tables/natura ... ition.html
Or some natural sea salt if you're away from the coast...
At 1300ppm you would get 650mg of Mg from 500ml of seawater.

Perhaps a cheaper option than commercial electrolyte replacements? And no added sugar, flavour, colour etc.

[corvus]

What works for me is Staminade and Calcium & Magnesium with Vitamin D3 tabs which is a good mix I also swear by Glucodin tabs (bear in mind I am over 60 and dont do the hard yards in the saddle) but I still do the same 5+ hour walks that you younger members do
I also use salted nuts in my scroggin
c

[ben.h]

Area54,
Thanks for mentioning massage. After a long day (perhaps not quite 12 hours unlike you!) I sometimes do self massage. I haven't actually been taught or know what I'm doing, however, firm fingers and knuckles into my calves and thighs and "always work towards the heart" is what I do.

If you have more detailed and specific instructions and / or techniques for self massage I'd love to hear them

As a final note I guess I have to mention cleat position and poor pedalling technique (particularly excessive toe pointing on the down stroke) can also be major contributors to calf cramp. Although this thread isn't about cycling per se I thought I would mention it for completeness, and you never know, it could lead someone to an "aha" moment.

As a final, final note, I have to also mention that a hot shower (not easy in the bush, I know) can also help prevent some muscle soreness after a hard workout.

[abowen]

ben,
As a final, final note, I have to also mention that a hot shower (not easy in the bush, I know) can also help prevent some muscle soreness after a hard workout.[/quote]
Referring to your thread, I always thought that hot showers straight after a hard work out locks in lactic, but this may be a myth and I don't know the science behind it.
After a hard walk (longer than 5 hours on my feet) I like to soak in a cold stream, tarn or lake (if I can find one deep enough). I find that this helps, particularly with my joints (I am 50 years young).
On the matter of salt, I generally - like others - consume COS at the end of the day and drink lots of powdered drink mixes- Tang, etc as well as Staminade during the day. I find that this mostly works and have never suffered from cramp so much, but have been severely dehydrated at times on those really stinking hot days (to the point of feeling light headed, thumping headache and feeling nauseous - despite drinking frequently and as much as I could get on board). I recall one occasion while crossing the Lodden Plains in sweltering heat where all in our party suffered from a bit of dehydration even though we were drinking lots and stopping at every river, creek to have a dunk. In the end we were eating the salt out of those portion packs you get from Macca's, etc. This alleviated the problem a bit, but we were mighty lethargic at the end of that day and slow to start the next day.
I concur with the protein drink, but admittedly I have this as breakfast time (Sustagen plus water vigourously shaken in one of my water bottles). I can also mix it with boiled water to have as a warm drink. It is a great drink for the start of the day. Maybe I should change this to the end of the day and see if it makes any difference.
Cheers
Andrew

[Area54]

Yes Ben, same here with the work towards the heart, using the heel of the palm or knuckles - whatever will work to get into that right spot. I also use a urethane foam ball (many health shops have them) and roll it over the muscle, a bit broader than the hand approach and ideal when you are home.

On a big multi-day ride the end of each day becomes a nice routine of massage, rehydration and refuel - along with the obligatory wine, cheese and good conversation. I don't drink, so it's a nice cuppa or chokky mik for me - for many years the staple recovery drink for cyclists has been a chokky milk. Rumour has it that the Russians used it as a mainstay for their recoving cyclists, but I have a feeling there was more in the milk than just chocolate...

Before a big ride I'll usually prep my hydration and electrolytes, meaning careful light dosing of
Endura and plenty to drink and let my body find it's balance, at least 4-5 days before the trip. Many people make the mistake of hydrating too late before or too much during a trip, then spend equal time drinking then frequently stopping for nature stops.

I'm particularly prone to hamstring cramps, hamstrings are an underdeveloped muscle group in cyclists and often out of balance with the powerful glutes and quadriceps. Cramps often appear in muscles that are doing work they are not used to - I found this in racing early on when you'd push that bit harder, hovering on the lactate threshhold for what seemed like eons, then you'd change a gear or shift position on the bike then blam! Cramp on baby.

Cramps can be complex and specific to each body and situation. Experimenting with diet, hydration and electrolyte balance, remedial massage techniques, muscle stretching and relaxing techniques as well as some specific strength work will all help. Salt is one part of the bigger picture.

[ashlee]

In the past I've suffered from cramps myself...
The doctor told me about oral rehydration salts, mainly used for diarhhoea but also used for salting yourself up!
The brand I use is Gastrolyte, just add one tablet to 250ml water and wallah! Works a treat!

[Dave Bremers]

Ah salt... I love hiking because I find we are always in the opposite situation to regular society. "Eat more salt" "Eat more fats" "Make sure you always eat more than enough food" aren't slogans repeated often anywhere else

On a trip to Federation Peak we were returning via the Arthur Plains in plus 30oC temps and one of our members began suffering quite badly from what appeared to be a lack of electrolytes, and I know too that drinking too much and not consuming enough salts makes for at the very least a miserable day.

So the solution? I believe stock cubes are absolutely brilliant at the end of the day, made into a hot soup of whatever concentration you desire. Delicious broth. I tend to stay away from Gatorade and other electrolyte drinks (though I can see the benefits of them) because they are IMO too artificial, expensive and heavy (560g for 8L) for extended hikes.

The real difficulty comes in getting those "other" salts: potassium and magnesium. Ben H on my next trip I'm going to try out your suggestion of Magnesium tablets, I know my old man had a bad problem with magnesium deficiency and I'll want to avoid that on my next trip up Fedder viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2977 I'm very interested to try these fish oils as well, and thanks for the effort you went to typing out your philosophy! Good tips.

Tas-man I tried the old drinking sea water trick and, believe it or not, found it incredibly salty! definitely a good last resort, though a little unpalatable at first.

For muscle recovery I've been trialling at home some whey protein but without the added preservatives, sugars, other refined rubbish - at 30g/day its light enough to take with me for most hikes, and as a result of its simplicity is cheaper too. On the most recent trip to Frenchmans Cap and Freycinet we trialled a similar philosophy of protein powder and found it worked a treat. the link is http://www.proteinfactory.com.au/prodde ... WPC%5F1000

ah and while i remember, i heard on one of these forums about a 'salt substitute': potassium chloride. anyone know about this?

Dave

[Dave Bremers]

sorry just noticed that this page had 666 views so for everyone's safety I had to bring it off that number

[volcboy]

I tend to eat mountain bread with vegemite for lunch (much easier now they have the squeezy tubes) - plenty of salt and B vitamins. I also take a block of hard cheese for the first 2 to 3 days to add to it.

Salt + fat = yum

[corvus]

I always take "Hans Strikers" 150g Salami sticks individuality sealed no need to keep cold, full of fat ,carbohydrates and salt yumm
corvus