Interesting article on Tick Removal

[walk2wineries]

People can & do get sick from Tick-borne diseases but its usually Rickettsiae in this country isn't it?
My understanding is that people waving test results from 'specialist lyme laboratories" in the USA have actually used labs NOT ACCREDITED IN THE USA either! where they have the same problem with people claiming they have Chronic Lyme disease without objective evidence. - see http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra072023. Its actually harder for the Americans, because they do have known Lyme disease there as well.

And yes, it is a bit of a big deal here when people are demanding broadspectrum high dose antibiotics -- they don't just affect themselves, if they do get sick with something else they are loaded with resistent organisms and that can be really scary. And those germs spread.

happy to fwd the NEJM article if anyone really wants it but hasn't access to it.

My own approach to ticks - well, I know that freezing is good, oryou can paint betadine or something on which kills them and does a pretty good job of disinfection. Personally I yelp and pull the revolting things off when i see them. And I try to remember to wear shirts without buttons, (ie gaps!) tuck them into my trousers, and put repellent around my collar, waistbands and cuffs.

[GPSGuided]

It was a CIA biological weapons project that escaped into the wild? While West Nile was just a nasty natural virus. LOL!

[peregrinator]

My own approach to ticks - well, I know that freezing is good, or you can paint betadine or something on which kills them and does a pretty good job of disinfection.

What is the product used for freezing a tick?

[walk2wineries]

I assume the stuff beauticians use to freeze the skin of an earlobe before peircing it - ethyl chloride. Years ago I remember dermatologists using a slush made of carbondioxide snow and liquid nitrogen, bit less portable, the ethyl chloride comes in a small spray bottle.

[GPSGuided]

http://www.wartoff.com.au

[davidmorr]

As much as Lyme disease is not as well known as a local disease, there's sufficient expertise locally to make an accurate diagnosis. Simply, there are enough specialists who have textbook/journal knowledge as well as many with personal experiences in treating such there in N America (a common country for postgrad training) and Europe. If there indeed is a concentration of Lyme disease sufferers here, I'd be surprised if they weren't picked up and confirmed by our experts.

There is such a thing as the medical "establishment". And like all establishments, there are factions. Some want change, some want to keep the status quo, and will fight to the death to keep it so.

The medical establishment discounts the use of faecal transplants as a treatment for a number of diseases of the digestive system. Whether it is the icky-factor or what, they are prepared to ignore scientific studies showing the efficacy for Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, etc. This is despite there being no other real treatment for many of these conditions.

Some specialists will buck the establishment - and risk the ridicule of their so-called colleagues - to provide this treatment, and many hundreds of people are free of debilitating conditions because of this.

So no, just because the medical establishment refuses to admit something does not mean it is not happening.

(I have no opinion on Lyme. I am just relating my own experiences and knowledge with medicos.)

[GPSGuided]

There is such a thing as the medical "establishment". And like all establishments, there are factions. Some want change, some want to keep the status quo, and will fight to the death to keep it so...

Thanks for your comments. But there are facts, well based, peer reviewed, repeated studies on which medical decisions are made. True that there are odd-balls out there who tries to push poorly designed studies and pseudo-science, but those are generally well weeded out when it comes to a policy at the specialty association level. For the lay, general public, it indeed can look fractious. One or two studies/reports does not a fact make. So don't get too carried away by the limited reports on the various inflammatory bowel disease and treatments. Many of them are exploratory studies, needing confirmatory studies and follow ups.

So be more confident of the medical establishment, especially at the association/national level.

[LandSailor]

But there are facts, well based, peer reviewed, repeated studies on which medical decisions are made.

Have you heard of the concept of the "half-life of facts"?

"For example, in the area of medical science dealing with hepatitis and cirrhosis, two liver diseases, researchers actually measured how long it takes for half of the knowledge in these fields to be overturned. They gave a whole bunch of research papers from fifty years ago to a panel of experts and asked them which were still regarded as true and which had been refuted or no longer considered interesting. They plotted this on a graph. What they found is that there is a nice, smooth rate of decay; you can predict that every 45 years, half of this particular sort of knowledge gets outdated."

[GPSGuided]

Have you heard of the concept of the "half-life of facts"?

As a basis to trust oneself in pseudosciences and other belief based systems? Our scientific processes provide the proper framework to allow one to apply the best knowledge and treatment at any point in time.

[LandSailor]

Dont want to hijack this thread so will keep it brief

As a basis to trust oneself in pseudosciences and other belief based systems?

No more as a basis for healthy informed scepticism and an awareness that even the scientific process is not infallible.

Our scientific processes provide the proper framework to allow one to apply the best knowledge and treatment at any point in time.

Its the best system we've got but that is something different from being 100% correct on all things at a given point in time.

[GPSGuided]

Its the best system we've got but that is something different from being 100% correct on all things at a given point in time.

So then challenge it with sound evidence, not poorly based hypotheticals, let alone hearsay.

[LandSailor]

What hearsay? Need more than just evidence, need an open mind too.

[GPSGuided]

Random belief is pretty open too. Sorry, not in the same realm.

[davidmorr]

So be more confident of the medical establishment, especially at the association/national level.

You seem to be suggesting that medicos are infallible.

As I said, there are factions with different beliefs. A gastroenterologist says there is nothing wrong. An immunologist says it is caused by an auto-immune condition. Who is correct?

I would further add that not all medicos are up with the latest research, especially if it is not directly in their own area. Some are just resting on past reputation. And some are just plain lazy or incompetent. Like any other profession or trade.

Just because there are not many "well based, peer reviewed, repeated studies" does not mean a treatment is not effective and reliable. Often it just means that no drug company can see a way to make money out of it. Or are making too much money from less effective treatments.

[GPSGuided]

You seem to be suggesting that medicos are infallible.

Incorrect! I am suggesting that competent mainstream medical research is based on proper scientific methodology, one that should be trusted than random ideas and psudo-sciences. Note, I am not talking about individual out of touch practitioner but published guidelines from the peak body of each specialty, or the department of health. Those bodies are not out of touch with the latest research.

[matagi]

Just for general information, the quote below is taken from the Royal College of Pathologists of Australasia position statement on Lyme Disease in Australia. The second last sentence implies there has been no genuine case in an Australian who has not travelled to an endemic area. The position statement is quite a comprehensive document, which can be viewed at:
http://www.rcpa.edu.au/Library/College-Policies
(you need to click on "Position Statements" to view the list of documents)

The examination of Australian ticks to date has not detected Borrelia spp. in them, and although further investigations are warranted, as at January 2014, Australian ticks are not thought to carry the Borrelia spp. that can cause Lyme Disease.
Further investigations of Australian patients (with symptoms similar to those of Lyme Disease) and Australian ticks (especially Ixodes spp) may clarify the issue. Only a genuine case in a non- travelling Australian patient would confirm the disease as being present in Australia. There are no endemic tick species in New Zealand, so it is most unlikely Lyme Disease occurs there.

[icefest]

The progress report has been published.
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/ ... report.pdf

[macka17]

Hi.

Regarding the Ticks in Australia.


They can. AND DO kill your dogs real fast if you get them.
I'lived a lot of yrs in Townsville. Darwin. and South in Adelaide.
Always had dogs. Had several ticks in Adel.
A few in Darwin.
and removed several EVERY DAY from my short hair dogs in Townsville.
Even with the drops on them (the dogs.)

YRS ago. Mainly Smokers (in my 70's) we all smoked.

Dog had a tick. Male or female (Males are the killers) Part fur\hairs. and burn Tick.
It'll fall off. releasing it's hold and injection system on the dog.

NEVER use a knife or anything to prise them off.
The body comes. The jaws and poison sack stay. = dead dog.
oR a very sick you if one latches on.

I've had one in my 30's out scrub shooting in Townsville. Tick got me.
I was pretty crook for a coupla days after we extracted it with a fag.

Nowadays I carry one of those electric "GLOW" lighters Not flame.

Touch that to any tick. They release. and drop off.

YOU can wipe dog with Metho too.
That'll shift them but it don't like your dogs skin.

[peregrinator]

Nowadays I carry one of those electric "GLOW" lighters Not flame.

Touch that to any tick. They release. and drop off.

Macka, I've done a search for "electric glow lighter" and found nothing useful. What are they and/or where can I get one? I've had tick bites every time I've walked in East Gippsland and south-east NSW, so I'd like to try your suggestion on my next trip.

[slparker]

Perigrinator,
If you go all the way back to the original post you'll find the method recommended by the australian society of clinical immunology and allergy. And It's not a 'electric glow lighter'.


http://www.allergy.org.au/patients/inse ... ck-allergy

these are the recommended methods for removing a tick:
Ether-containing aerosol sprays are currently recommended for killing the tick. Aerostart® and other similar products have been used extensively to kill ticks in allergic patients. It should be noted that these products are not registered for use in humans and contains benzene but there is long term experience with these products which have been shown to be very effective in treating those with serious tick allergies.
The use of other ether-containing sprays such as Wart-Off Freeze® (and similar e.g. Elastoplast Cold Spray®) has also been effective. These products will continue to be studied and advice updated as experience increases.
If available, liquid nitrogen applied by a doctor should also (in theory) be effective.
- See more at: http://www.allergy.org.au/patients/inse ... F5jxO.dpuf

[peregrinator]

[quote="slparker"]Perigrinator,
If you go all the way back to the original post you'll find the method recommended by the australian society of clinical immunology and allergy. And It's not a 'electric glow lighter'.

http://www.allergy.org.au/patients/inse ... ck-allergy
/quote]

Thanks for the information, slparker. I will try an ether-containing spray as noted in the link. And also be more careful about choice of clothing -- no more shorts might be a good start!

[Orion]

I don't fully understand it, but Lyme has been very polarizing in North America, and there is a lot of weird politics surrounding it. I think a large part of the activism here is a view that all governments are the same, or that all medical practitioners are the same, and that without a large activist presence we will see the same results here as are in North America, the US specifically. For some reason Europe doesn't seem to have a problem accepting that Lyme is there, but weirdly it doesn't seem like any of that research gets into north america.

I think the controversy mostly has to do with so-called long-term Lyme disease, not the existence of Lyme. There is no real controversy about that.

Lyme is scary. It isn't always diagnosed early and the consequences can be severe. So people fear it. That's normal human behavior and is the main reason there's a thread about it here.

I had a tick live on my back for about a week once. Lyme is present in California but isn't very common here. I didn't have any of the symptoms of Lyme. And the type of tick that I had was not one known to ever carry Lyme. Nonetheless I insisted upon receiving an antibiotic. Why? I'm not prone to pseudo-science, quite the opposite. But when one's health is threatened, or when there's even the appearance of a threat, there is a natural, predictable human reaction. It may be illogical but it's normal.

So it's understandable that people with long-term, undiagnosed health issues would look for an explanation and unconventional solutions. There are other instances of this kind of thing besides Lyme.

By the way, the clinic I went to botched the removal, crushing the tick before getting it out. That spot on my back was itchy for over a year.

[gbagua]

I keep this tick removal tool in my first aid kit. It is designed for European and North American ticks, I trust it works on Aussie ones....

http://www.tickremover.com/

Dead link.

Here's a page with more tools.

[GPSGuided]

Ok, how many people actually carry a tick removal tool in their pack?

[vicrev]

I will be now..!!!

[andrewbish]

While walking in the Nadgee Wilderness in far east Victoria a couple of months ago a few of our party were bitten by tics, including me - twice. (Ouch!) We found using sharp nosed tweezers, held close to the skin was a simple and effective means of removing them.

[GPSGuided]

Googling around, has any one tried the dental floss removal technique? Sounded like the ideal solution for ultralighters.
http://www.wikihow.com/Remove-a-Tick

[walk2wineries]

I carry a tiny tube of EMLA. (local anaesthetic paste, available OTC) My preference for using topical local anaesthetic was a bit reinforced lately when I saw someone with "insect in ear" - oh great, a tick latched onto the ear canal right next to the ear drum. Fortuantely that hospital had "Auralgin" which is an oily mixture with local anaesthetic in it - left it 5 minutes and the tick let go & was washed out intact .

[andrewbish]

I carry a tiny tube of EMLA. (local anaesthetic paste, available OTC) My preference for using topical local anaesthetic was a bit reinforced lately when I saw someone with "insect in ear" - oh great, a tick latched onto the ear canal right next to the ear drum. Fortuantely that hospital had "Auralgin" which is an oily mixture with local anaesthetic in it - left it 5 minutes and the tick let go & was washed out intact .

I like this approach, particularly as it's much more practical than tweezers for self treatment in hard to get to spots. I wonder if EMLA might also work for leeches

[icefest]

I think I might need to get a bigger tube of EMLA, I only have a tiny 5g sample pack.

I wonder if EMLA might also work for leeches

Don't leeches produce their own anaesthetic?