Victorian Speed / revenue cameras

[vicrev]

Our rail system is third world,all it needs is someone swinging a lantern,with a flag in front of the train,really complete the picture............ .........

[GPSGuided]

Meglev is not the answer for such long distances. Fast trains out in Asia/Europe are hitting 300+km/h and is a mature technology and would be ideal. Cutting Sydney to Melbourne to around 3 hours. Unfortunately or fortunately, we have the land size but not the population size to fund such infrastructures without a significant financial pain.

[photohiker]

Meglev is not the answer for such long distances. Fast trains out in Asia/Europe are hitting 300+km/h and is a mature technology and would be ideal. Cutting Sydney to Melbourne to around 3 hours. Unfortunately or fortunately, we have the land size but not the population size to fund such infrastructures without a significant financial pain.

Such a train system would take the load off the air traffic. A fast train over those distances would be time and price competitive with aircraft. What's missing is politicians with a worthwhile vision.

The bonus would be massive reduction in CO2 Emissions:



From: http://www.seat61.com/CO2flights.htm

[GPSGuided]

Such a train system would take the load off the air traffic. A fast train over those distances would be time and price competitive with aircraft. What's missing is politicians with a worthwhile vision.

I completely agree with you in terms of public convenience as well as environmental benefits. However, it'll need a massive injection of fund to implement. Given the cat fight over NBN, I hate to imagine what would happen over a national network of fast train tracks and services. In the meantime, China commenced a massive high speed train network building project in 2006 and will complete 25,000km of track by 2020 for US$300B (That's $12M/km and Sydney-Melbourne could be had for $12B). I doubt we'll get even 1 track laid by 2020 and expect cost to be multiple of the Chinese figure (Feasibility projection for the same is A$61-108B). Should have diverted a significant portion of our mining boom profit to such a project than cuddling up to the electorates with tax cuts and other bonuses.

[icefest]

It's some kind of weird urban myth that a reduction in fatalities has led to an increase in serious injury.

While I agree with the seatbelts etc thing, there is one thing about that statement to consider. With the increase in survival after high speed MVAs caused by better acute medical care there will be a corresponding increase in people living with serious injury.

On the other hand medical advances have also decreased the long term complications of serious injury.

[climberman]

It's some kind of weird urban myth that a reduction in fatalities has led to an increase in serious injury.

While I agree with the seatbelts etc thing, there is one thing about that statement to consider. With the increase in survival after high speed MVAs caused by better acute medical care there will be a corresponding increase in people living with serious injury.

On the other hand medical advances have also decreased the long term complications of serious injury.

Yeah, naaahhhh, as the kids say these days.

Think of crashes as a pyramid like the classic 'food pyramid'.
At the top are fatalities.
Below are life-changing epic injuries - serious irreversible brain damage, major physical trauma, etc.
below that a line of major injuries.
Below that again minor injuries.
Below that again are non-injury crashes.
Below that again are 'that was close'.

We are reducing the incidence of these crashes across the board. It's great. It can be hard to notice though, as if you don't have a crash you don't know your life was just saved

We are reducing all of these in Australia, particularly in Victoria, which is producing better fatality and injury stats (i.e., people's lives saved and injuries avoided) than anywhere else (OK, ACT sort of better but they are very small and there results are skewed a bit by the fact that many more ACT drivers die in NSW than the ACT). As an amazing coincidence, Victoria has the tightest controls on speeding... speed control is the last easy trigger for governments and agencies to pull for safety improvements.

EDIT: re-reading I wasn't clear - as we see a reduction on fatalities, we are also seeing a reduction in serious trauma. What was once a crash where one went through the windscreen via the steering wheel and dashboard is now a broken arm and airbag, as an example.

[climberman]

As much as I despise the artificially low speed limits on our major highways I must agree that we need much better high speed infrastructures. Starting with a maglev from Melbourne to Sydney and underground rail shuttles from our major airports to city centres

There's $100billion we aren't ever going to see spent I reckon!

Sydney has an underground rail shuttle from Kingsford Smith to the City.

[Moondog55]

Living with serious ABI and other long term serious disability issues as a result of road trauma would be much worse than death IMO; major strides in treatment and rehabilitation not withstanding. Some serious injuries that would have caused death a decade ago are now treatable and I think that is the issue that some people confuse with the higher serious injury rate idea. I said death would be preferable.
That's only my opinion tho and others will differ
Too many people in the world as it is; we should perhaps be encouraging risky activities not constraining them

I do reserve the right to change my mind from time to time depending on the evidence and how much coffee I've drunk instead of eating a proper breakfast

[climberman]

Living with serious ABI and other long term serious disability issues as a result of road trauma would be much worse than death IMO; major strides in treatment and rehabilitation not withstanding. Some serious injuries that would have caused death a decade ago are now treatable and I think that is the issue that some people confuse with the higher serious injury rate idea. I said death would be preferable.
That's only my opinion tho and others will differ
Too many people in the world as it is; we should perhaps be encouraging risky activities not constraining them

I do reserve the right to change my mind from time to time depending on the evidence and how much coffee I've drunk instead of eating a proper breakfast

There isn't a higher serious injury rate.

[Moondog55]

There is a perception that there is.
I said that many of those serious injuries would have killed people a decade ago

[climberman]

There is a perception that there is.
I said that many of those serious injuries would have killed people a decade ago

Yes, the perception is there. Like many perceptions, it's false

And the people formerly seriously injured and unkilled are now suffering minor or no injury.

Its a great advance.

[Moondog55]

Airbags
Not much in favour of US style airbags [ they go off at very slow speeds] but Side Protection units are wonderful if you don't want to wear a helmet; but we are still not allowed to use 4-point Inertia reel harness which I have never understood as 4-point IR are EU approved and far more comfortable to wear

[photohiker]

US airbags are different because they are designed to work with an occupant not necessarily wearing a seatbelt. In the EU and here, SRS is installed (Supplemental Restraint System) designed to work with a seatbelt.

Activation of Airbags is based on impact forces, not speed.

[GPSGuided]

Too many people in the world as it is; we should perhaps be encouraging risky activities not constraining them

Only if they make sure they die, and not get saved with or without a disability. Other than that, cigarette is good for that.

[Moondog55]

Then lets stop taxing cigarettes but remove all medical reimbursements and subsidies for self inflicted diseases?
Think of all the new high risk sports we could introduce, bungie jumping with no bungy cord, Free flights to 10'000m and no parchute. Possibilities are endless
Russian roulette comes to mind

[north-north-west]

Maglev is not the answer for such long distances. Fast trains out in Asia/Europe are hitting 300+km/h and is a mature technology and would be ideal. Cutting Sydney to Melbourne to around 3 hours. Unfortunately or fortunately, we have the land size but not the population size to fund such infrastructures without a significant financial pain.

Such a train system would take the load off the air traffic. A fast train over those distances would be time and price competitive with aircraft. What's missing is politicians with a worthwhile vision.

Yeah, I'm very much in favour of this, although it's one more area where Tassie would be left out.
Or do you include a rail tunnel under Bass Strait in your plans?

[photohiker]

Probably a tunnel too far

At this rate we'll struggle to get even the busiest route between Sydney and Melbourne done. Then Sydney to Gold Coast and Gold Coast to Brisbane. After that, we have Melbourne to Adelaide, Melbourne to Hobart, and Adelaide to Perth.

China does rail at a fraction of our costs because of their scale. We should contract them to do it. Just fence off the area and let them at it.

[GPSGuided]

Probably a tunnel too far

At this rate we'll struggle to get even the busiest route between Sydney and Melbourne done. Then Sydney to Gold Coast and Gold Coast to Brisbane. After that, we have Melbourne to Adelaide, Melbourne to Hobart, and Adelaide to Perth.

China does rail at a fraction of our costs because of their scale. We should contract them to do it. Just fence off the area and let them at it.

It's all about economics isn't it? If the economic turnover there in Tasmania warrants it, a tunnel is not out of the question at all. But agree there's a long long way to go, if ever. China has gone from an importer of HSR technology to an exporter. Apart from their scale, they typically don't have deal with the political and social mud slinging when it comes to these major infrastructure projects. A major subway line in Beijing gets completed in 9 months and HSR is in the same realm. Getting back on subject, China's motorways can be quite an experience, where on some of the out of the way sections, one may encounter local famers sunning their grains. Otherwise they also have speed cameras and their speed limit is similar to here in Oz.

[icefest]

Yeah, naaahhhh, as the kids say these days.

I'm not sure what you are basing your assertion on. The latest stats I could find on the topic compare the early 2000s to the late 2000s; there is a significant increase in the amount of serious injury.


http://www.aihw.gov.au/publication-deta ... 0737421993

[photohiker]

Shouldn't those statistics be tempered by the kilometres travelled?





Population has increased, as has number of vehicles and distances driven. Just tying it to population doesn't really reflect the changing nature of accident risk and congestion on the roads.

ABS data here: 9208.0 - Survey of Motor Vehicle Use, Australia

[photohiker]

As I see it, and concentrating on passenger vehicles, the number of km driven has increased from 144k in 2001 to 163k in 2010, that is about 12%. Applying it to the serious injury rate per population (giving us rate per population per distance), 2010 should be about 262.08 but 2009 rate is actually 246.5

[icefest]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough before.

While the deaths and disability (as a fraction of distance travelled) has come down the ratio of severe injuries to deaths has increased. This is happening due to the absolute amount of deaths decreasing, but the amount of hospitalization increasing.

Personally, I suspect this is due to increasingly effective medical treatment increasing the survival of otherwise deadly conditions - leading to increased hospital stays.

[icefest]

I don't disagree that there is less injury/death per km traveled.

[photohiker]

And I don't disagree with you icefest, but I think it is important to acknowledge that despite the movement in the ratio, the overall statistic has improved.

[icefest]

And I don't disagree with you icefest, but I think it is important to acknowledge that despite the movement in the ratio, the overall statistic has improved.

I wholeheartedly agree.

All these discussions of conditional probability can obscure the most important facts.

[GPSGuided]

All these discussions of conditional probability can obscure the most important facts.

Life is a terminal illness and certain activities will make it come earlier or later. Choose wisely.

[north-north-west]

Apart from their scale, they typically don't have deal with the political and social mud slinging when it comes to these major infrastructure projects. A major subway line in Beijing gets completed in 9 months and HSR is in the same realm.

Given everything one hears about corruption and compromised construction standards in China, would you really risk it?
Cost there is also not just about scale but about relative wages.

[photohiker]

I don't like the sound of some of the stuff that goes on, but in any case, the results of China's infrastructure boom are amazing.

It's like visiting an alien world compared to Australia's most 'advanced' train network.

[GPSGuided]

Given everything one hears about corruption and compromised construction standards in China, would you really risk it?
Cost there is also not just about scale but about relative wages.

I think you have to take a perspective on some of the reports we read here. It's an ancient country with a population that's 50x of ours. Not as if we don't have corruption, but multiply by the population size, everything sounds astronomical. Fact of the matter is, they are getting things done, implementing solar/renewable energy in scale that's way beyond our imagination, paving HSR networks and other infrastructure that benefit their citizen and relieving poverty. There are lessons we can learn. Fact is, reading US centric Western press leads to a skewed sense of that land. Political ideology is one thing, what truly matters is the outcome and a bit of personal experiences make it real.