Paris

[vicrev]

Deepest sympathy to families & friends of the victims in Paris..................................

[geoskid]

Obviously, anything to say about the motivated thinking behind it.

I remember after the Charlie Hebdo attack, Cameron, Obama and Abbot we at pains to suggest that Religion had nothing to do with this.
In the wake of this attack, I have zero respect for anyone that will not see that dogmatic thinking is at the root of this.

Over to you vicrev.

[DanShell]

Very sad to see the media reports of whats happened in Paris and even the other terrible instances around the world over the last few days.

I am just a simple man with a very simple education so I dont really understand the difference between Iraq and Iran or ISIS or whoever these terrible people are, but why can't we all just live in peace. Why does there need to be such terror and why do we need to give these terrorist the exposure they obviously desire??

[geoskid]

At least you did not offer thoughts and prayers, which are the two most useless things anyone can do.

What one can do is put some effort in to attemping to understand the thinking/causes behind this. What religious people will do though, is try to distance their *&%$#! thinking from the *&%$#! thinking of those behind this attack ,at base though it is the same unexamined, motivated thinking aimed at justifying pre-existing, inherited beliefs..

Yes I am angry, you could teach dogs quicker.

[geoskid]

Very sad to see the media reports of whats happened in Paris and even the other terrible instances around the world over the last few days.

I am just a simple man with a very simple education so I dont really understand the difference between Iraq and Iran or ISIS or whoever these terrible people are, but why can't we all just live in peace. Why does there need to be such terror and why do we need to give these terrorist the exposure they obviously desire??

You may be a simple man Dan, but it is your choice to either remain a simple man or embrace lifelong learning. Or leave it up to others to sort this *&%$#! out. None of us should throw our hands in the air and say... Meh.

[MickyB]

A really sad situation but the one thing that put a very small smile on my face was French soccer fans being evacuated from the Stade de France, no doubt being absolutely *&%$#! scared, but standing as one and proudly singing the French national anthem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iQ2cHuZ0xE

At least you did not offer thoughts and prayers, which are the two most useless things anyone can do.

I am not religious but if it helps people cope then who cares if they want to offer thoughts and prayers.

[geoskid]

A really sad situation but the one thing that put a very small smile on my face was French soccer fans being evacuated from the Stade de France, no doubt being absolutely *&%$#! scared, but standing as one and proudly singing the French national anthem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iQ2cHuZ0xE

At least you did not offer thoughts and prayers, which are the two most useless things anyone can do.

I am not religious but if it helps people cope then who cares if they want to offer thoughts and prayers.

But it does nothing to help people cope, it just makes those offering thoughts and prayers think they have done something. It's a saying, it does nothing.
It happens again and again. Nothing will change unless those offering thoughts and prayers actually do something, like challenging their own thinking, examining how their absurd beliefs give cover to other's absurd beliefs.

Offering thoughts and prayers is for those that have nothing to say.

[DanShell]

You may be a simple man Dan, but it is your choice to either remain a simple man or embrace lifelong learning. Or leave it up to others to sort this *&%$#! out. None of us should throw our hands in the air and say... Meh.

Well I agree. But what is it that I can do?

I was just discussing this whole ISIS or terrorist thing with my wife and something inside me says lets use whatever force is available to rid the earth of theses terrible people.

But is using violence to fight violence the way it should be handled? Personally I don't think there is room for violence in society for various reasons I won't discuss here. But please tell me what is it that a simple man like me can do to stop these people from causing so much grief to innocent people?

I see my Facebook 'friends' making status's that could be seen as racist, or perhaps they are liking these reclaim Australia type of organisations, but I can't see any of that being a lot different to what we are all against really. Im not a fan of extremists in any form, and certainly not a fan of racial propaganda. There is always a lot of emotion involved immediately after horrible attacks like this.

If there was something I could do to help world peace, short of becoming a Miss World contestant, I would do it.

[MickyB]

But it does nothing to help people cope, it just makes those offering thoughts and prayers think they have done something. It's a saying, it does nothing.

So let's not have funerals for anyone because. hey, even if we pray and think about the deceased it doesn't really matter. They're dead. They're not coming back to life.

Nothing will change unless those offering thoughts and prayers actually do something, like challenging their own thinking, examining how their absurd beliefs give cover to other's absurd beliefs.

I know some people go to church and prey for world peace. Should they change their way of thinking as well?

[geoskid]

You may be a simple man Dan, but it is your choice to either remain a simple man or embrace lifelong learning. Or leave it up to others to sort this *&%$#! out. None of us should throw our hands in the air and say... Meh.

Well I agree. But what is it that I can do?

I was just discussing this whole ISIS or terrorist thing with my wife and something inside me says lets use whatever force is available to rid the earth of theses terrible people.

But is using violence to fight violence the way it should be handled? Personally I don't think there is room for violence in society for various reasons I won't discuss here. But please tell me what is it that a simple man like me can do to stop these people from causing so much grief to innocent people?

I see my Facebook 'friends' making status's that could be seen as racist, or perhaps they are liking these reclaim Australia type of organisations, but I can't see any of that being a lot different to what we are all against really. Im not a fan of extremists in any form, and certainly not a fan of racial propaganda. There is always a lot of emotion involved immediately after horrible attacks like this.

If there was something I could do to help world peace, short of becoming a Miss World contestant, I would do it.

Hiya Dan.

By this post (and others before) I don't think you are a simple man (you have referred to yourself as that many times)
I agree knee-jerk reactions to ISIS by various groups by lumping all Muslims into one homogenous group is not the answer. At root, once all the layers of the onion are peeled back, we get to the thinking of individuals, and only the individual. This is key, I think.
Religious fundamentalists, wether they be Muslim or Christian ( or other) take their Holy book as literal, or can find justification for anything .( Denial of evolution being common to both). 'Moderate' Muslims or Christians, wether they realize it or not, apply, or have applied for them, something more or additional to their beliefs. This something more is to be highlighted, made explicit. Lets call it reasoning.

The world would be a better place if people applied reasoning to their beliefs. A wish too far would be for every individual to value exemplary reasoning, and to die for would be for them to attempt it. Hence violence.

See my sig for the gold.

ETA: I'm not suggesting there is anything easy about this, but attempting to change thinking is at root.

Here is a book that I have not read but seen interviews about. This is what a discussion about the problem should look like :

http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Future-Tole ... bc?ie=UTF8

[geoskid]

But it does nothing to help people cope, it just makes those offering thoughts and prayers think they have done something. It's a saying, it does nothing.

So let's not have funerals for anyone because. hey, even if we pray and think about the deceased it doesn't really matter. They're dead. They're not coming back to life.

Nothing will change unless those offering thoughts and prayers actually do something, like challenging their own thinking, examining how their absurd beliefs give cover to other's absurd beliefs.

I know some people go to church and prey for world peace. Should they change their way of thinking as well?

A jump too far to suggest not have funerals. Note that the way funerals are done differs around the world.

Yes, absolutely, people that go to church to pray for world peace should change their way of thinking.
They are talking to themselves and making not a jot of difference.

Better to skip Church, and just change their thinking.
What a wonderful world it would be.

Read Stephen Pinker (if you want):
http://www.amazon.com/Better-Angels-Our ... bc?ie=UTF8

[GPSGuided]

Awful how the leaders of the Western world has led us down this path. What we all need to understand is that 'terrorism' don't come out of thin air while some would consider bombs and missiles that come out of thin air as terrorism when huge numbers are affected by 'collateral damage'. That's what turns a neutral mass into suffering and despair, and justifies extremist's messages. For as long as I can remember, tragedies of the magnitude of Paris has been on a near daily occurrence since the 2nd Golf War in the Middle East. It's now out of containment...


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[DanShell]

Hiya Dan.

By this post (and others before) I don't think you are a simple man (you have referred to yourself as that many times)
I agree knee-jerk reactions to ISIS by various groups by lumping all Muslims into one homogenous group is not the answer. At root, once all the layers of the onion are peeled back, we get to the thinking of individuals, and only the individual. This is key, I think.
Religious fundamentalists, wether they be Muslim or Christian ( or other) take their Holy book as literal, or can find justification for anything .( Denial of evolution being common to both). 'Moderate' Muslims or Christians, wether they realize it or not, apply, or have applied for them, something more or additional to their beliefs. This something more is to be highlighted, made explicit. Lets call it reasoning.

The world would be a better place if people applied reasoning to their beliefs. A wish too far would be for every individual to value exemplary reasoning, and to die for would be for them to attempt it. Hence violence.

See my sig for the gold.

ETA: I'm not suggesting there is anything easy about this, but attempting to change thinking is at root.

Thanks for the compliment or the suggestion thereof. But just to keep things simple, Stephen Pinkers very essence is exactly the way society should have evolved long ago. None of us should accept violence for any reasoning. Period.

Religion is complicated. As is mental illness. There is no simple solution to the worlds problems otherwise a simple man as me would have the answers I am not a religious man although I was brought up as a strict Catholic. My grandmother wouldn't eat meat on any Friday, however I will now reluctantly eat it even on Good Friday.
I want to believe we go to a better place when we die but I don't want to practice a religion. I want to believe there is a higher power looking over us but I don't want to admit it.

I am a simple, but complicated man

[geoskid]

Awful how the leaders of the Western world has led us down this path. What we all need to understand is that 'terrorism' don't come out of thin air while some would consider bombs and missiles that come out of thin air as terrorism when huge numbers are affected by 'collateral damage'. That's what turns a neutral mass into suffering and despair, and justifies extremist's messages. For as long as I can remember, tragedies of the magnitude of Paris has been on a near daily occurrence since the 2nd Golf War in the Middle East. It's now out of containment...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes, it's just awful. George W and Blair both thought they had (their)God on their side. Who knows what could happen if the current crop religious wing -nuts get in in America.

All anyone can do is keep smacking down those that would impose their nuttery on the world.

[geoskid]

Hiya Dan.

By this post (and others before) I don't think you are a simple man (you have referred to yourself as that many times)
I agree knee-jerk reactions to ISIS by various groups by lumping all Muslims into one homogenous group is not the answer. At root, once all the layers of the onion are peeled back, we get to the thinking of individuals, and only the individual. This is key, I think.
Religious fundamentalists, wether they be Muslim or Christian ( or other) take their Holy book as literal, or can find justification for anything .( Denial of evolution being common to both). 'Moderate' Muslims or Christians, wether they realize it or not, apply, or have applied for them, something more or additional to their beliefs. This something more is to be highlighted, made explicit. Lets call it reasoning.

The world would be a better place if people applied reasoning to their beliefs. A wish too far would be for every individual to value exemplary reasoning, and to die for would be for them to attempt it. Hence violence.

See my sig for the gold.

ETA: I'm not suggesting there is anything easy about this, but attempting to change thinking is at root.

Thanks for the compliment or the suggestion thereof. But just to keep things simple, Stephen Pinkers very essence is exactly the way society should have evolved long ago. None of us should accept violence for any reasoning. Period.

Religion is complicated. As is mental illness. There is no simple solution to the worlds problems otherwise a simple man as me would have the answers I am not a religious man although I was brought up as a strict Catholic. My grandmother wouldn't eat meat on any Friday, however I will now reluctantly eat it even on Good Friday.
I want to believe we go to a better place when we die but I don't want to practice a religion. I want to believe there is a higher power looking over us but I don't want to admit it.

I am a simple, but complicated man

I really don't think anyone is out to stomp on or dis-abuse anyone of those types of harmless beliefs.
Funny isn't it. If you hear voices you have a metal illness. If it is God talking to you, you can be the President of the USof A.

[GPSGuided]

...All anyone can do is keep smacking down those that would impose their nuttery on the world.

And create more despair and destroyed families, all leading to more volunteers to the extremists' cause? The perfect viscous cycle! There has to be a far smarter and multi-pronged approach, including political options. Must know that bombs and bullets can never win a war of ideas. Sometimes the pen is mightier than the sword.


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[geoskid]

...All anyone can do is keep smacking down those that would impose their nuttery on the world.

And create more despair and destroyed families, all leading to more volunteers to the extremists' cause? The perfect viscous cycle! There has to be a far smarter and multi-pronged approach, including political options. Must know that bombs and bullets can never win a war of ideas. Sometimes the pen is mightier than the sword.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sloppy language on my part. How about:

All anyone can do is challenge the ideas of those that would impose their religious beliefs on the world. That does involve sticking ones neck out though.

[stepbystep]

http://m.smh.com.au/comment/view-from-t ... kzh9i.html

[north-north-west]

http://m.smh.com.au/comment/view-from-the-street/view-from-the-street-god-damn-it-we-need-to-be-kind-20151115-gkzh9i.html

Thanks. He sums up the way I feel nicely. Except that it's not going to change anything in the short or even medium term. Eventually, if enough people in enough places practice what he's preaching, we might struggle through.
The problem is, people who are willing to kill and die and tear up the rule book always have the upper hand because there are no limitations on what they will do. And there is no way to distinguish them from the rest until they have done it. Whereas trying to combat them while operating within what we consider the parameters of normal human decency hobbles us. We have to do it, because otherwise they have already won, but it remains a handicap.

There is no simple solution. Perhaps, there simply isn't a solution at all.

[wayno]

you have a group of people saying they are an Islamic organization to try and attract ismamists. they are an extremely violent organization. they are likely to be an organization full of paranoid people just using islam as a front to attract people., even though they believe in islam it doesn't make it an organization that is really following the religion it claims to be. the paranoid people are identifying with islam and the cause of the organization.
its hard to describe paranoia accurately. but they are people who tend to psychologically need enemies and believe they are justified in carrying out actions that aren't rationally justifiable because they are over reacting based on their thought processes and emotions and problems they have in owning all their emotions. They aren't comfortable with, because they were brought up to blame other people for certain emotions that they are feeling and can't accept as being responsible for generating those emotions themselves.
I'm not justifying paranoia as an excuse for what is happening for immoral unethical actions, society demands as an adult you take responsibility for your actions and and you should accept consequences from actions.
you have an organization that pays a good wage to people who struggle to find a decent wage, that helps in attracting people to the cause, but that is not an excuse for unjustified immoral actions.
your average dictators are usually paranoid personalities, some extreme paranoids were Hitler, Stalin, the rulers who treat specific groups of people extremely badly, sometimes to the point of trying to exterminate them. even revolutionaries can be paranoids too and carryout immoral acts once they get into power...

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

Geoskid,

For someone who thinks religion is the source of all evil, you certainly do seem to be doing a lot of preaching.

The root cause of these events in our society is intolerance. Not religion. And as someone who places anyone with any religious beliefs into a box like you do, I'd hazard a guess you're exactly part of that problem. ISIL terrorists are a tiny, minority group.

Thoughts and prayers are important to some people, and whether you think it a right or wrong way to deal with problems is completely your perogative.

But climbing on your soapbox in a bushwalking forum, and claiming yourself as part of the solution by placing the blame of a tiny minority group at the feet of religious people world wide - is perhaps even more ignorant than a Christian who is "harder to teach than a dog" - your wording, not mine.

I'm religious. I also have no problem with gay marriage, I believe scientific and religious views are not mutually exclusive (given I have a science degree and am not "uneducated" as you would probably assume), and don't think religious texts are supposed to be taken literally. What other people think, or if they are religious at all, is completely their perogative - I welcome them without prejudice - and would love to live next door to them, or work with them, or let my kids socialise with them.

You might assert Christians don't offer anything other than their prayers for the affected and their families in Paris, but you'd be wrong - and I find the assumption offensive. My wife and I donate large amounts of money to orphan projects in Zimbabwe and other African nations, designed to protect the health of and educate orphans - the very group of people that groups like ISIL attempt to recruit.

I don't offer this to big note myself, but rather to ask ... what actual steps have you taken? Have you ever put your money where your mouth is, or is it easier to place everyone in a religious box, apportion blame, and wash your hands of any involvement?

I avoided the temptation to use the report post on your comments, although I am aware that discussion of political and religious things go against the forum rules. However, I felt some things needed to be said and hope I've done this as tactfully as possible - and I invite Wildwalks to take it down immediately if I've overstepped the mark. Hopefully this discussion can be kept away from finger pointing, blaming and armchair expert solutions and not be shut down.

The last time I saw people being ridiculed and judged en masse for nothing other than having religious beliefs, was footage from the Auschwitz gas chambers in 1944.
Intolerance is indeed a slippery slope.

[geoskid]

Geoskid,

For someone who thinks religion is the source of all evil, you certainly do seem to be doing a lot of preaching.

The root cause of these events in our society is intolerance. Not religion. And as someone who places anyone with any religious beliefs into a box like you do, I'd hazard a guess you're exactly part of that problem. ISIL terrorists are a tiny, minority group.

Thoughts and prayers are important to some people, and whether you think it a right or wrong way to deal with problems is completely your perogative.

But climbing on your soapbox in a bushwalking forum, and claiming yourself as part of the solution by placing the blame of a tiny minority group at the feet of religious people world wide - is perhaps even more ignorant than a Christian who is "harder to teach than a dog" - your wording, not mine.

I'm religious. I also have no problem with gay marriage, I believe scientific and religious views are not mutually exclusive (given I have a science degree and am not "uneducated" as you would probably assume), and don't think religious texts are supposed to be taken literally. What other people think, or if they are religious at all, is completely their perogative - I welcome them without prejudice - and would love to live next door to them, or work with them, or let my kids socialise with them.

You might assert Christians don't offer anything other than their prayers for the affected and their families in Paris, but you'd be wrong - and I find the assumption offensive. My wife and I donate large amounts of money to orphan projects in Zimbabwe and other African nations, designed to protect the health of and educate orphans - the very group of people that groups like ISIL attempt to recruit.

I don't offer this to big note myself, but rather to ask ... what actual steps have you taken? Have you ever put your money where your mouth is, or is it easier to place everyone in a religious box, apportion blame, and wash your hands of any involvement?

I avoided the temptation to use the report post on your comments, although I am aware that discussion of political and religious things go against the forum rules. However, I felt some things needed to be said and hope I've done this as tactfully as possible - and I invite Wildwalks to take it down immediately if I've overstepped the mark. Hopefully this discussion can be kept away from finger pointing, blaming and armchair expert solutions and not be shut down.

The last time I saw people being ridiculed and judged en masse for nothing other than having religious beliefs, was footage from the Auschwitz gas chambers in 1944.
Intolerance is indeed a slippery slope.

I specifically said the root cause is thinking.
You have misrepresented my views numerous times in your post, and I don't feel the need to defend views that are not mine.

[GPSGuided]

you have a group of people saying they are an Islamic organization to try and attract ismamists. they are an extremely violent organization. they are likely to be an organization full of paranoid people just using islam as a front to attract people...

I don't think one can just brush those ISIS people as paranoid. Fact is, after decades if not over a century of foreign power meddling and suppression, the whole Middle East has so much pent up anger that it doesn't take much to gain support and achieve critical mass as ISIS has. The illegal 2nd Iraq war and the mess it left Iraq with was just the latest, not forgetting the US led Western powers were just aggressively trying to remove Assad 12-18 months ago, before their sudden reversal as it all led to the rise of ISIS. I can perfectly see how ISIS being the only 'effectively' group to fight their cause and how it could attract followers all around the world. There's no paranoia when one's family home, work, friends and relatives have all been bombed out in the form of collateral damages, the present is just an expected set of responses from all the sufferings and despair there.

[wayno]

you have a group of people saying they are an Islamic organization to try and attract ismamists. they are an extremely violent organization. they are likely to be an organization full of paranoid people just using islam as a front to attract people...

I don't think one can just brush those ISIS people as paranoid. Fact is, after decades if not over a century of foreign power meddling and suppression, the whole Middle East has so much pent up anger that it doesn't take much to gain support and achieve critical mass as ISIS has. The illegal 2nd Iraq war and the mess it left Iraq with was just the latest, not forgetting the US led Western powers were just aggressively trying to remove Assad 12-18 months ago, before their sudden reversal as it all led to the rise of ISIS. I can perfectly see how ISIS being the only 'effectively' group to fight their cause and how it could attract followers all around the world. There's no paranoia when one's family home, work, friends and relatives have all been bombed out in the form of collateral damages, the present is just an expected set of responses from all the sufferings and despair there.

a lot of arabs are under the same conditions, the vast majority don't resort to terrorism as an answer.
it often takes a paranoid personality to resort to the extremes of ISIS. Hitlers SS troops was also rife with paranoid personalities.

[wayno]

there are hundreds of millions of arabs living under difficult conditions, the no of those that are terrorists is relatively small by comparison

[icefest]

Now that we've has our say can we shut up and stop discussion religion/politics and go back to the OP?

WW does a great job moderating these forums and shouldn't it be our job to try and keep things civil?

If you think a post is not following forum guidelines report it. Don't reply.

[geoskid]

Now that we've has our say can we shut up and stop discussion religion/politics and go back to the OP?

WW does a great job moderating these forums and shouldn't it be our job to try and keep things civil?

If you think a post is not following forum guidelines report it. Don't reply.

If you don't want to discuss it Icefest, then don't.
Who are you to tell people to shut up?

The events that unfolded in Paris is by nature religious and political.

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

Hi icefest.

I considered at length using the report post function, but was hopeful that previous posts which were provocative could be kept in check with a reply - for the exact reason you alluded to - to avoid Wildwalks having to get involved.

If you think my reply was religious in nature then I completely failed to get my point across and I'm sorry - I too was annoyed that after the OP, the topic went down that road immediately. The whole point of my post was to those who were provocatively pushing the OP down that route, because it shouldn't have been going that way. If I didn't make that obvious enough or made it worse, report away. I'm happy to amend my original post at your suggestion to make it clearer that I was arguing against intolerance of others rather than for anything.

Intolerance of others or their beliefs shouldn't be accepted in Paris - nor at bushwalk.com

[north-north-west]

Intolerance of others or their beliefs shouldn't be accepted in Paris - nor at bushwalk.com

Which means geoskid has the right to think - and say - what he wants, regardless of anyone else's opinion. Cuts both ways.

It's not a subject that can be discussed without going into the political ramifications, or without considering the role religion plays in such events.

I'll leave this thread with one of my favourite quotes for everyone to mull over: "To do a great evil requires only a great belief" (Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn).

[GPSGuided]

a lot of arabs are under the same conditions, the vast majority don't resort to terrorism as an answer.
it often takes a paranoid personality to resort to the extremes of ISIS. Hitlers SS troops was also rife with paranoid personalities.

That's not paranoia but being opportunistic. The more the extreme the condition gets the more likely these extremisms would rise. With the mess of Iraq and the failed regime change in Syria, it has reached a critical mass there. Complete stuff up by the US led Western powers.

Edit: Oops, just read the following posts. I'll shut up too. Peace on Earth!