free topo maps for NSW

[polas]

hi,
I recently realised that many people are not aware of great topo and satellite maps we have available in NSW.

http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/mapping_and_i ... b_services

This website is probably a gibberish for most non-programmers but it is actually very easy to get access to the data. I have been using it to make printable topo maps for a while but just recently discovered a way to load them to my phone and use off-line.
you will need (if you don't have it for some reason) and app called motion-x gps
http://gps.motionx.com/
the app is free but you will need to pay $8 to unlock custom maps option (no I don't work for them )
in the app just use these strings to access nsw imagery:

http://maps.six.nsw.gov.au/arcgis/rest/ ... rver/tile/[Z]/[Y]/[X]
http://maps.six.nsw.gov.au/arcgis/rest/ ... rver/tile/[Z]/[Y]/[X]

the app allows to download sections of the map for off-line use.
enjoy

Pawel

[LachlanB]

Yep, it sure is handy being able to feed the NSW Topo Maps into Motion X.
Out of curiosity, have you got any idea how to connect Motion X to the equivalent New Zealand topo maps server? I spent ages trying last year before a trip to New Zealand and had absolutely no success.
I tried
http://maps.cera.govt.nz/arcgis/rest/se ... rver/tile/[Z]/[Y]/[X]
and
http://services.arcgisonline.co.nz/ArcG ... /MapServer tile/[Z]/[Y]/[X]

[polas]

Yep, it sure is handy being able to feed the NSW Topo Maps into Motion X.
Out of curiosity, have you got any idea how to connect Motion X to the equivalent New Zealand topo maps server? I spent ages trying last year before a trip to New Zealand and had absolutely no success.
I tried
http://maps.cera.govt.nz/arcgis/rest/se ... rver/tile/[Z]/[Y]/[X]
and
http://services.arcgisonline.co.nz/ArcG ... /MapServer tile/[Z]/[Y]/[X]

those servers appear to be dead. a least partially.
The first one serves no tiles for any zoom levels.
The second one seems to be serving only up to level 7 (which is probably quite useless) from 10 levels listed in API

for instance you can get a tile:
http://services.arcgisonline.co.nz/arcg ... 7/1278/247

[LachlanB]

Hmmm... I can imagine that the first is dead, coming from CERA, but the second link provides a complete topo map in ArcGIS Online.
Also, if it was simply a matter of some data being missing, surely the stuff present would still show up? But I'm getting nothing at any zoom level.

I'm wondering if there's a difference in the underlying format of the data. For the NZ Topo maps, the ArcGIS Online tool's URL is [...]html?basemapUrl=http[...], while the NSW topo maps have [...]html?url=http[...] The difference is that in the ArcGIS Online tool, the NSW Topo Map is being displayed over the basic ArcGIS topo map, while the New Zealand map seems to be completely replacing it.

[GPSGuided]

Polas, can you give an actual example of the URL to use in Motion-X for LPI NSW topo map data? What's the ZYX to use here? Where can one get the X and Y in particular? Thanks.

[LachlanB]

Hi GPSGuided,
I know the question was for Polas, but I'll just jump in,

You don't have to provide the X Y and Z, Motion X does that for you. The strings Polas has posted are exactly what you put into Motion X.
Here's a screenshot off my phone that shows how the final bit of the string works.

[GPSGuided]

Thanks LachlanB, bingo! It has come up. Fantastic!

[polas]

Hmmm... I can imagine that the first is dead, coming from CERA, but the second link provides a complete topo map in ArcGIS Online.
Also, if it was simply a matter of some data being missing, surely the stuff present would still show up? But I'm getting nothing at any zoom level.

I'm wondering if there's a difference in the underlying format of the data. For the NZ Topo maps, the ArcGIS Online tool's URL is [...]html?basemapUrl=http[...], while the NSW topo maps have [...]html?url=http[...] The difference is that in the ArcGIS Online tool, the NSW Topo Map is being displayed over the basic ArcGIS topo map, while the New Zealand map seems to be completely replacing it.

as far as I know the rest API in all the cases just requests tiles (each address points to one square jpg or png file of that area). You can access the API like this:
http://services.arcgisonline.co.nz/arcg ... /MapServer
which shows all available zoom levels and their ranges.

I tried to query it using python the same way I access tiles from LPI (google, open street maps etc) but I cannot get any.
it seems that the zoom levels do not correspond - zoom level 15 on LPI has the same scale as zoom level 10 on LINZ map.
I thought they should be the same in order for universal REST links to work.
motion X gps has no way of remapping zoom levels and the math to calculate the tile index will not work for a different zoom. Even correcting for that in my python test I got no tiles at all and my calculated indexes do not fit in the APIs range. Basically without some special treatment that API is not compatible. or maybe I'm trying to do it too late at night

[LachlanB]

No problem!
Motion X really is quite wonderful to use on a walk, the sheer convenience of having your location plotted straight onto the NSW govt topo maps.

I quite frequently find myself guilty of using it idly on train trips and the like to find out the names of the local features I'm passing. Much more handy for that than Google Maps.

[GPSGuided]

I note the NSW LPI tiles are blurry until one magnifies to 14 or higher. Probably a Motion-X display issue.

[LachlanB]

Cheers, thanks Polas,
Shame to find out that it's a lost cause. I might try sending an email LINZ and ask them if there's another source for the maps.
Python is way beyond anything I could do though, so thanks very much again.
My experience with Esri's products has mostly involved ArcMap, so I'm a little out of my depth here...

I'm not sure about the display issues with Motion X. One theory I had was that it might be because the NSW Topo maps were originally derived from physical sheets and the resolution is still at the grain that was on those sheets?

[GPSGuided]

What's disappointing with the latest LPI topo is the progressive loss of tracks, ones that are needed for us bushwalkers.

[tom_brennan]

NZ data is available up to zoom 10 (which is zoom 15 in the standard web maps). For example:
http://services.arcgisonline.co.nz/arcg ... 11911/4713
But you need to reproject the data + remap the zoom to be able to use it in other applications. It's in EPSG 2193 (NZ Transverse Mercator), which is not your standard Web Mercator.

I've been playing with the LPI data to create a series of web maps of layers and tools that I think would be useful. You can have a look at them here.
http://maps.ozultimate.com/wiki/website_about
You can compare the blurriness of the tiles to Motion X - to be honest, the tiles aren't much use below zoom 14.

[polas]

NZ data is available up to zoom 10 (which is zoom 15 in the standard web maps). For example:
http://services.arcgisonline.co.nz/arcg ... 11911/4713
But you need to reproject the data + remap the zoom to be able to use it in other applications. It's in EPSG 2193 (NZ Transverse Mercator), which is not your standard Web Mercator.

which is impossible to do in motionX as we do not have access to the algorithm and it is hardcoded for standard web mercator.
How do you know it is EPSG 2193? is it stated somewhere in the API? Or is it just standard for NZ maps? just curious. This would explain why I wasn't able to get any tiles from it.

I've been playing with the LPI data to create a series of web maps of layers and tools that I think would be useful. You can have a look at them here.
http://maps.ozultimate.com/wiki/website_about
You can compare the blurriness of the tiles to Motion X - to be honest, the tiles aren't much use below zoom 14.

I noticed that your web maps are much sharper and nicer than anything I was able to get. Do you always pull the higher zoom levels?
Cool web maps Tom btw. I really like where it is going.

it seems that more and more people are doing cool stuff with the available data. This one was one of my favourites recently:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/292 ... topo2.html
beats the standard six maps website
https://maps.six.nsw.gov.au/

[tom_brennan]

How do you know it is EPSG 2193? is it stated somewhere in the API? Or is it just standard for NZ maps? just curious. This would explain why I wasn't able to get any tiles from it.

It says so at the bottom of the page: http://services.arcgisonline.co.nz/arcg ... /MapServer

Spatial Reference: 2193 (2193)

I noticed that your web maps are much sharper and nicer than anything I was able to get. Do you always pull the higher zoom levels?

No, you should get the same through any web map. The only "special" thing I do is allow zooming beyond the zoom level of the tiles. LPI goes to 16, but sometime you want to go in further. Particularly applies when you're layering with things like the imagery, which can go as high as 21.

it seems that more and more people are doing cool stuff with the available data. This one was one of my favourites recently:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/292 ... topo2.html

Yes, that one was what started me off. I figured it would be useful to have a simple topo map I could use on my phone, and also a layered one (topo/imagery) for desktop, that you could drag and drop GPX files, edit points and lines, share and more. Both of these are coming along. Works in progress!

[outjb]

love the maps Tom - especially the gpx drag and drop functionality.

Just out of curiosity, does your server retain a copy of all the gpx files "dragged" onto the maps? If so, a long term side effect of this might be you being the most comprehensive gpx database of NSW walking trails

Jon

[polas]

Yes, that one was what started me off. I figured it would be useful to have a simple topo map I could use on my phone, and also a layered one (topo/imagery) for desktop, that you could drag and drop GPX files, edit points and lines, share and more. Both of these are coming along. Works in progress!

for desktop I use:
http://www.geopainting.com/
it is easy to plug any maps to it and it comes with a lot of useful tools. The most importantly it can generate garmin compatible maps for my trusted handheld. Worth every penny

[tom_brennan]

Just out of curiosity, does your server retain a copy of all the gpx files "dragged" onto the maps? If so, a long term side effect of this might be you being the most comprehensive gpx database of NSW walking trails

No, though it will need to save things where people want to share a link (work in progress).

Files dragged and dropped remain entirely local.

[johnw]

I've been playing with the LPI data to create a series of web maps of layers and tools that I think would be useful. You can have a look at them here.
http://maps.ozultimate.com/wiki/website_about

That's brilliant work Tom! I often use Six Maps but appreciate the functionality and improved "zoomability" of what you have developed (noting inaccuracies where stated).

[LachlanB]

That map's great Tom, being able to draw lines and polygons, as well as mark points is handy.

The other day I was looking at the NZ Routeguides Wiki, and thinking that something like that might be handy for NSW. Not necessarily as a gpx database, but simply as a visual record of tracks and routes. It'd be particularly useful if it could be expanded further away from Sydney into regional parks and used the NSW topo maps as a basemap.

[polas]

That map's great Tom, being able to draw lines and polygons, as well as mark points is handy.

The other day I was looking at the NZ Routeguides Wiki, and thinking that something like that might be handy for NSW. Not necessarily as a gpx database, but simply as a visual record of tracks and routes. It'd be particularly useful if it could be expanded further away from Sydney into regional parks and used the NSW topo maps as a basemap.

as much as I like the idea of the visual record of tracks for personal use I'm not sure I would like to see one publicly available. We have this unique environment here that we can 'discover' tracks and that a lot of places are pristine and look like no one visited them ever before. A public map with tracks will make the places more popular and accessible for people who shouldn't be there, who come with a can of pink spray and paint big arrows all over the place...

lets keep three sisters and grand canyon marked on the maps, and nothing else

[LachlanB]

True, I suppose I usually end up on the accessibility side of that debate. Although, I do love exploring as much as the next person.
But I think you're being a bit to harsh there, I think we'd need to mark Wentworth Falls on the map as well!

What set me off was thinking about how the current NSW topo maps are increasingly loosing tracks. I went on a walk up to Mt Currockbilly in the Budawangs last year, and it was mostly all on track, either old firetrails or a footpad through the bush. Yet, according to the LPI, even the old firetrails don't exist. It kinda irks me that a resource like that has just vanished from the maps. It makes planning walks much more difficult than it should be.

[polas]

True, I suppose I usually end up on the accessibility side of that debate. Although, I do love exploring as much as the next person.
But I think you're being a bit to harsh there, I think we'd need to mark Wentworth Falls on the map as well!

LOL

What set me off was thinking about how the current NSW topo maps are increasingly loosing tracks. I went on a walk up to Mt Currockbilly in the Budawangs last year, and it was mostly all on track, either old firetrails or a footpad through the bush. Yet, according to the LPI, even the old firetrails don't exist. It kinda irks me that a resource like that has just vanished from the maps. It makes planning walks much more difficult than it should be.

maybe they are thinking the same... less trails marked = less people destroying NPs

you are right that planning is harder without good resources. But at the same time you end up having a better adventure. And once you hit a trail it is usually hard to lose it anyway.
I was recently really surprised how well defined the trail to stargate tunnel is. I kind of expected bush bashing to get there... at least reaching point Cameron was a bit of a challenge

[bushtucker]

Hi all,

Good thread here. I tried to use MotionX GPS on the weekend in the Blue Mountains and was unable to get a GPS signal to accurately locate where we were. I'm trying to work out if I wasn't using the app properly or are you saying that our mobile phones are capable of GPS navigation out in the bush even where there is no phone signals?

Thanks,

Daniel

[GPSGuided]

What set me off was thinking about how the current NSW topo maps are increasingly loosing tracks.

More reason to enter those tracks into OSM before they vanish from memory.

[polas]

Hi all,

Good thread here. I tried to use MotionX GPS on the weekend in the Blue Mountains and was unable to get a GPS signal to accurately locate where we were. I'm trying to work out if I wasn't using the app properly or are you saying that our mobile phones are capable of GPS navigation out in the bush even where there is no phone signals?

Thanks,

Daniel

Daniel.
the satellite communication is passive and totally independent from your phone reception.

iphone even set to plane mode (to save battery) with no reception can still receive signals from satellites and show you the location. I found on may occasions, in difficult terrain, that my garmin was totally useless and couldn't lock onto any satellite while my phone was happy showing me my position.

Pawel

[tom_brennan]

I think that legitimate tracks should be on the LPI topo maps. It's a massive failure when major tracks don't make it on to the maps, and there are plenty of example of this (and it seems to be a growing problem).

There are a small group of us who have formed a mapping group for NSW bushwalking. There are a few objectives, but certainly one item on the list is to talk to LPI about what is going on with tracks.
http://maps.ozultimate.com/wiki/braindump

Other objectives include:
- building useful web tools for bushwalkers with existing sources of GIS information
- collecting, digitising and, where possible, displaying historical maps (bushwalking, topographic, etc) of NSW, as there is much information on the old maps which is lost in more recent ones (old names, old fire trails etc)

If anyone wants to get involved, feel free to contact me. We're interested in hearing from people who are willing to help on the current projects, or kicking off other projects.

[bushtucker]

Thanks Pawel - I'll try it again and investigate the app more to see if I can get it working.

Tom Brennan - love your work.

[tom_brennan]

I've been working on the mapping apps I referred to above over the last day or two. Basically I now have three main versions:
1. Topo - just the basic topo, with mobile location
2. Topo/Imagery - two layers (LPI Current Topo, LPI Imagery), with an opacity slider, and mobile support
3. Latest - all the bells and whistles. In theory you can load from file, draw new items and edit existing ones, edit add/edit labels, save, and share links - for example, http://maps.ozultimate.com/?id=1464320528828 - note that to share the data, a copy is saved on the server. If you don't want that, don't share!

I'm sure it's not all working perfectly, but figure it might be of use to others. Certainly of use to me!

Comments or bugs welcome. For more information, see http://maps.ozultimate.com/wiki/website_about

[Harry76]

Hi @ Tom_Brennan.

The resource you have created is unbelievable. Thank you very much!

I'm now teaching my kids (8 and 5) about bush walking and navigation ans was wondering if I can export routes made with you website to an iphone (or app on the phone)?

Thanks again!