Commercialisation in the Equipment forum

[Mark F]

There seems to an increasing use of these forums by commercial interests for their own benefit, especially the Equipment forums. While I am not directly against this trend, especially by smaller individuals who are offering access to specialist products and services, I do worry that mainstream retailers could very quickly dominate and a couple seem to rather close to breaching the forum rules. I believe this needs to be debated and some clearer guidelines set.

[DanShell]

I wouldn't normally get involved in this discussion but I think until mainstream retailers are exploiting the privilege then its not really an issue.

There are a couple of smaller 'cottage' type venders that do use the forums and show off their products, but they also contribute a great deal to the forum. In the context of what they are doing it could be debated that they are in fact doing more of a service to us, more so than themselves.

[GPSGuided]

Suspect MarkF is looking for a separate sub-forum for the cottage industry contributors, no? As many cottage type entrepreneurs started as DIY types, that gradual transition has not been specifically categorised in the present forum partition. Maybe that should be the point of discussion?

[Mark F]

I certainly don't want to stop anyone providing people with useful and relevant advice. I am happy with the relatively low key and useful contributions by the likes of simonm and undercling-mike as they are working with goods that have little competition in the market so information about them can be hard to find. I would be happy to see more involvement by some cottage guys like terra-rossa, remote equipment repair etc. but the sudden appearance and high volume posts by one mainstream retailer (50 posts in under 1 month), and now a second has chimed in, I think it is time to ask where the boundaries are for general outdoor retailers. There is a forum for commercial posts - Specials, Discounts, Adverts.

[Tyreless]

I agree with Mark F and have found the commercial posts intrusive. They breach the forum rules when they promote themselves particularly with regards to price-matching. Quite all right if they are in the Specials/Discounts/Adverts sub-forum because then they won't take over the other threads.

[whitefang]

I'm with Mark F and Tyreless on this one. I've noticed a lot of posts self promoting commercial stores without really giving new information about a product that can't be found elsewhere. I like the contribution of cottage manufacturers like simonm and undercycling-mike because it's information coming straight from the manufacturer and if they promote specials or pricing it's always in the correct sub forum.

[GPSGuided]

...the sudden appearance and high volume posts by one mainstream retailer (50 posts in under 1 month), and now a second has chimed in... There is a forum for commercial posts - Specials, Discounts, Adverts.

I have missed those as I don't usually take note of the particular sub-forum of a particular post. Perhaps just click the report button and ask the mods to send a PM to those offending posters and move those posts into the appropriate sub-forum?

[wildwalks]

thanks guys. Can you fling through some examples to me or includes links here.
My general rule with commercial operators (of any size or type) is that they are very welcome (encouraged) to join in existing conversations about their products - but not to initiate them. They can initaite them in ads/specials area.
Eg. If I posted. "Glad tough bags are the best raincoats ever but I really find the lemon scented ones give me a rash". Then I would like it if Glad got on and suggest the lavender scented bags. Yeah okay dumb example but you get the point.
If another company jumped in or glad started talking about other products in the range then I think it fair to suggest the stay on topic.
Forums are a type of social media and this site is monitored by several gear providers. I recon this is good and they should be part of the conversation as we all win of the msg gets across. But if they start to hijack the party - that is different and generally they know that.
Happy to discuss this further if you don't like this approach. (None of them sponsor this site and there is no commercial deals other then the standard ads via Google and affiliates, these are all done via automated auction and the oly role I play is to try to block inappropriate ads - most hot Russian babes type ads). Having said all that Wildwalks obvious is a primary sponsor but I try hard to make sure that does not effect decisions. Blah blah blah.
Matt

[Osik]

I think Mark and others might be referring to some of the posts in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=20943&start=30

Paul certainly offered some useful advice in the thread whereas Chris-Toms Outdoors seemed to simply advertise.

I should say that I enjoy the posts from the cottage industry guys (ie. Terra Rosa Gear, Tier Gear, Undercling Mike, Franco re Tarptent) and hope they keep posting. Re the more blatant advertising, I'd suggest simply posting a reminder in the thread and moving those posts to the relevant forum.

[wildwalks]

Thanks Guys

Mark and Osik for pointing this thread out
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=20943&start=30

I think I this is a good example of where it worked really well - and where it gets awkward.
Not wanting to get into making moderation decisions on public (that always ends in tears).
Here is what I think worked really well.
* the advice seemed good and tailed
* the advice was quick and friendly
* Most of it was about the product (rather then the retailer).
A second company could step in and offer advice, but if there is offering to price match -- this is when it seems to get competitive and feels like a sales thing.

So it is fair to say, we want reps from companies to be
* open and honest of who they are
* offer advice when requested
* but not to offer deals or negotiate sales in public space.
I want to think about this more -- what if they said 10% off for all people who mention bushwalk.com?? It seems to be more about the context rather then the actual comment??

I am not a fan of too many rules, the less the better and clearer it is. Maybe we encourage these guys in on the conversation??

thanks

Matt

[rucksack]

I'm with MarkF, GPSGuided, Tyreless & whitegfang on this one.

Commercial is commercial; it comes down to what shades of grey are appropriate (and where). This site also has nearly 9,000 members and probably many thousands more eyeballs: a tempting 'opportunity' for equipment businesses, or guiding businesses, or publishing businesses in Australia devoted to the outdoors. Some businesses are beginning to game this site, or at least blur the edges and this could become an issue for some as membership numbers continue to increase. It is not a question of “too many rules”, but one of clarity.

I think that GPSGuided's suggestion is a good one.

Perhaps, a new Cottage Industry Manufacturers sub-forum could be hived off the Specials, Discounts, Adverts sub-forum, which might itself be renamed Outdoor Services & Retail?

Both these sub-forums could then become part of the Equipment forum.

I really appreciate the input from Franco et al so why not take a simple path and make it simply clear.

A Cottage Industry Manufacturers sub-forum of the Equipment section could specifically cover cottage industry manufacturers who manufacture and sell direct – as in Terra Rosa Gear, Tier Gear, Undercling Mike and the like. They are small, agile and often bespoke, so we know who they are and if a new manufacturer sets up shop, we can note (and welcome) their 'arrival' and peruse their innovations. Undercling Mike's new quilts are a perfect example.

Outdoor Services & Retail (formerly Specials, Discounts & Adverts) could then cover businesses selling outdoor equipment, (but not manufacturing) and those offering a variety of outdoor services, including publications. If you make and sell and are a small medium enterprise (SME), the Cottage Industry Manufacturers sub-forum would be the place to look. If you sell, but don't make, or are in the business of selling outdoor services, or publishing outdoor books or magazines, you would be at home in the Outdoor Services & Retail sub-forum where adverts and 'offers' would be expected.

It's all about clarity.

I would put such sub-forums in the Equipment forum; it makes sense to me, but may not for others.

rucksack

[wildwalks]

Thanks Rucksack -- great feedback
I like the idea of the subforum and the new naming, but not sure that fixes the problem.

I think the cottage to industry tends to be more of a continuum then a line. EG where does Sea to Summit fit, they design and manufacture their own gear. Then you have Tier Gear who also retail other companies stuff (as well as their own).
Then for books/ebooks etc -- Many of these are very cottage -- There are fair number of small self published book and ebooks in AU.
For example if someone ask about information on a walk in a book I have published (through a publisher) or on a website I have done, can I answer that in the NSW on track discussion, or only in gear? (Currently I tend to avoid getting involved in these conversations because I don't want to be seen as taking advantage, but this means at times some people don't get good advice, I would jump in if they got bad advice)

I don't see a clean line between cottage and other commercial areas.

I like the idea of a sub forum where Terra Rosa Gear can jump on and say -- I have a new tarp check it out. I am not sure this should be separate from PP or others who want to say 10% off all BWA members in December.

But I also think he should be able to jump on a forum and answer any relevant questions about their service or gear, where every that conversation is taking place. I think the 'offending' posts have been where reps from business have jumped in and said they will price match.
It seems to me there are two main issues here
1) If people in the industry want to make an announcement, where can they do that? (We all seem to agree that this needs a special forum similar to what we have, but maybe renamed and moved -- is this fair??)
2) What conversations are okay from people working in the industry in threads that other people have started? I think this is where it is tricky, I don't see why people in the industry should be excluded just because this conversation started in a different subforum -- especially when they have the gear at hand and can provide feedback. But I do agree that the conversation needs to be open, answering questions but no sales talk. Maybe we just give a few examples for commercial operators like, no price cutting or matching offers, no putting down other manufacturers, Just simply answer the questions questions/concerns raised (otherwise go to subforum mentioned in point 1. I think this is relevant for retailers, manufacturers, designers and publishers.

Thoughts??

Matt

[GPSGuided]

Similar to what's suggested, I'd say that as long as the discussion is technical, then no problem. Once it comes to plain money talk, then it becomes unhealthy. Cost-benefit ratio discussions can be a bit tricky but it's usually clear whether the discussion is objective. Give and take with the occasional Mod button and comment should sort most out.

BTW, I'd say that in a very well educated forum, few commercial operators are able to influence the opinion and gain benefits easily. With poor quality products, this place has a habit of shooting them down in no time.

[MickyB]

conversation needs to be open, answering questions but no sales talk.

Totally agree with this. It's great that these reps can give advice about products but it is annoying when they try to sell their product and/or try to price match. Perhaps sales talk could be done using the PM function.

[rucksack]

Perhaps three sub-forums, rather than two, might solve some of the issues that you have flagged.

Dare I say, if you found yourself in direct competition with Lonely Planet for example, you might begin to see “a clean line between cottage and other commercial areas.” Whenever we say anything, we cannot, of course, say everything, but generally most of us have a clear enough idea - and often enjoy a general consensus - on what we mean and understand about this or that when we talk about it. Otherwise, coherent conversation would be near enough impossible. If, for the sake of argument, you employ yourself and perhaps one or two others, you are probably closer to a cottage industry than a multinational. If you employ a hundred people, well you are not quite what I immediately think of when I think of a cottage industry. Whatever else it is, (and I have bought a lot of their equipment over the years), Sea to Summit is not a cottage industry to my mind, or if it is, then I have no idea what 'cottage industry' actually means. If we say, what is the common thread with the following: Terra Rosa Gear, Tier Gear & Undercling Mike in Australia or Tarptent, ULA Equipment or Zpacks in the USA, the 'answer' wouldn't be Black Diamond. You get my drift. Most of us have a fairly good idea what 'cottage industry' means (and doesn't mean). Nevertheless, a Manufacturers sub-forum would sidestep this particular issue. If you design and make something, you can talk about it in the Manufacturers sub-forum. If you design something and get someone else to make it (usually somewhere else where labour and manufacturing costs and environmental and health & occupational checks are, how shall I say this delicately, more 'flexible'), you can also talk about it in the Manufacturers sub-forum. Problem solved.

When it comes to publishing, well, it could have its own sub-forum and whether you publish & distribute hard copies from a shopfront or through the post, or distribute your digital wares on-line, this would be the sub-forum to talk about it. You could be dealing with a print run of hundreds or find yourself managing a Lonely Planet-size operation, it wouldn't matter; you could talk about it in the Publishers sub-forum. This sub-forum would cover guide books, outdoors fiction & documentaries, first aid books, equipment books; you name it, if you can read it, or watch it, or listen to it, you can discuss it (and find it) in the Publishers sub-forum.

That leaves Outdoor Services & Retail (formerly Specials, Discounts & Adverts). With all manufacturing and all publishing removed, an Outdoor Services & Retail sub-forum would be just that: Outdoor Services, such as guided walks, walking tours, first aid courses and so on and retail, of course. Retail is retail. If you don't make it, but buy it from someone else (wholesaler or not) and then sell it to individual bushwalkers, it's retail, whether you are a bricks & mortar shop or an on-line operation. If your principal operation is selling, this is the sub-forum for it.

Might work.

There is no suggestion that one cannot respond to a post in any of the other forums and sub-forums, whoever they might be and whatever the forum, but a couple of clearly flagged sub-forums such as these in the Equipment section might just help make it clearer when a post is in the wrong place, or, more to the point, when it is an inappropriate post, or a post in an inappropriate place.

The equipment forum would then have seven sub-forums:

Techno-Babble
Make Your Own Gear
Ultralight backpacking
Gear Reviews
Manufacturers
Publishers
Outdoor Services & Retail

This is a larger number of linked sub-forums than most sections, but looking at the number of posts, Equipment accounts for the largest single number of posts on the site and 60% of all Main Track posts.

Finally, about the example of 'offering BWA members a 10% discount in December', well, I think common sense could prevail here; it would be most appropriate to offer such discounts via a post in the Outdoor Services & Retail sub-forum and if it were a manufacturer or a publisher directly offering the discount, a simple one line link in those particular sub-forums directing the reader to the Outdoor Services & Retail sub-forum would likely be all that would be needed.

Might work.

rucksack

[Mark F]

In giving this a couple of day's thought, I suspect the main issue is main-stream retailers trying to sell readily available products, not manufacturers or specialist retailers (eg myog supplies). Manufacturers almost always come with a high level of knowledge and can offer insights otherwise unavailable about their products. Retailers in my experience have some staff who are experienced and know their equipment but I usually find the opposite. I have left several shops after being exposed to abysmally ignorant staff spouting lies in pursuit of a sale. I can already see evidence that one such poster has little experience and is proffering advice and offering to research possibilities rather than provide comment based on knowledge and experience.

Possibly the easiest thing is to ban posts from retailers which mention their retail establishment. Those retailer posters who wish to pursue a commercial relationship with a member could communicate by pm where the recipient has the opportunity to block further contact. This way retailers can contribute but not push their commercial interests.

[corvus]

Unlike some other members I have no problems with Retailers advertising on the Forum especially if they can save me a dollar or two , good luck to them I say, do you complainants have nothing better to contribute ??

[Mark F]

Corvus - if you want the Equipment forum to turn into a free for all with retailers competing with each other that's your right. There is a forum, Specials Discounts and Adverts, for retailers to provide offers that may save you a buck or two.

[GPSGuided]

Fortunately people are sensible and can do that give and take. We'll all be ok.

[corvus]

Corvus - if you want the Equipment forum to turn into a free for all with retailers competing with each other that's your right. There is a forum, Specials Discounts and Adverts, for retailers to provide offers that may save you a buck or two.

G'day Mark ,
If I get advertising on any web site and or on this Forum that I don't want I just delete it, no big deal, an option open to all I would have thought

[Strider]

Corvus can you please shed some light on how to delete unwanted posts/topics?

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[corvus]

Corvus can you please shed some light on how to delete unwanted posts/topics?

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You cannot delete posts other than your own on the Forum ,I should have said in my post "delete or ignore" , in reality I don't think we will be getting any other than small retailers posting and why not if it can save us a few dollars.
Is it compulsory to read every post now ??

[Lophophaps]

Corvus can you please shed some light on how to delete unwanted posts/topics?

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Mods can do that, with sufficient reason. Select the ! symbol and, I think, add a few words about why. Will be acted on.

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

I've been pondering this for a week or so, then noticed this topic.

After the linked topic (where I supported the business involved), I received a PM asking if my comments could be used on their website.

I didn't think much of it and didn't mind, but now I think about it ... Sending a PM to a user in the hope of using their comments from bushwalk.com commercially... It's blurring the lines - and I regret my acceptance. While I meant what I said in my post, I regret that it may have encouraged commercial operators to think the equipment forum was free advertising.

Wildwalks, we all love your common sense application of the rules. I think the main point being made here is that while a line may have not yet been crossed, the potential for it occurring in the future is strengthening.

The specials/adverts/discounts forum is the ONLY place for this content. Discussion in the equipment forum highlighting a commercial interest, or advertising of prices by commercial groups needs rectifying.

Individuals or manufacturers should feel free to post technical info or personal experiences with certain gear, but not on behalf of a commercial store.

People respect Franco because he provides technical information (such as setup videos and product tours) not an advertising pitch with prices and links.

I think a small change now will prevent the floodgates opening later. These bigger retailers already bombard us with emails and junk mail, encroaching on the equipment forum is too much.

[tasadam]

Rule 2 currently states:

Content must not include propaganda, advertising, marketing or promotion for, by, or on behalf of, any organisation or entity whether commercial, non-profit, voluntary, lobby-group, political group or otherwise. Exceptions are as follows:
Commercial/Advertising posts are permitted in the 'Specials, Deals, Adverts' forum, and in brand/organisation-specific forums (only by that brand or organisation). See those forums' own rules sections for details of limitations.
Notifications of walking club activities are acceptable provided that such posts remain non-political, non-competitive and non-profit.
Information regarding personal or bushwalking-related issues, products or services and where to find further information are acceptable provided that the intent is solely for the benefit of providing information for bushwalkers (eg, answering a specific question) and there is no promotional intent for the benefit of any organisation or commercial entity.
Other items relevant to bushwalkers may be explicitly granted permission by the site administrators at the request of users (so please ask first if unsure).

If anyone wants to have a go at rewriting it so that it is more clear cut, we'd be happy to hear your suggestions and consider them.

Regarding commercial posts in other forums, unfortunately we cannot possibly read every post, and things get missed.
We therefore request that any post that a member feels is not within the spirit of the rules, that they use the report feature to bring the post to the attention of the moderation group.
We can then review the content and take action where necessary.
Ordinarily action taken is not discussed with anyone else, and certainly there is no mention of who (if anyone) reported a post.
Action may include things like messaging a user and having them self-moderate by editing their own post (preferred action), this makes them more aware of the rules. Or, we could edit it and send a PM.
Repeat occurrences may attract additional moderation as required. It's about educating people on the rules, not about being a heavy hand.

We appreciate the advertisers on this site as they are quite often more than willing to provide information pertaining to their products. However, there are rules to follow for the good of the forum, so we ask for everyones help with this to make us aware of what they see is a breach of the rules.

There is more on reporting posts HERE and HERE.

[tasadam]

Sending a PM to a user in the hope of using their comments from bushwalk.com commercially... It's blurring the lines - and I regret my acceptance. While I meant what I said in my post, I regret that it may have encouraged commercial operators to think the equipment forum was free advertising.

Remember that PM's can be reported the same way as posts on the forum.
Regarding feeling that your post has encouraged commercialism of the equipment forum, all members should be aware of the rules and commercial posts have specific rules as per my previous post.
If one person / company does it and gets away with it, others may follow. If posts are reported and we get these posts altered, we can go a long way to preventing a flood of unwanted advertising against the rules of this site.

[Nuts]

Haha, report, right, yeah. Good one team. Keep up the incredible effort.

[Chris-Toms Outdoors]

I'm sorry that my few equipment posts came across this way, that particular thread was my first few posts. I'm not much of a poster and have been an avid reader of the forums for menay years (even though I haven't been a member) It is my own inexperience in posting and I didn't want to repeat the same info the Paul had already posted. I was a bit frustrated my Snowy's (and Paul indirectly).

I'm a very small retailer (there's only 4 of us), I simply can't afford to employee anyone to trawl the forums and constantly post. I fear that the big stores in the cities just continue to grow at the expense of small country retailers and that has an effect on regional employment. I try to stay out of the equipment forums now for fear of my posts being interpreted as advertising, its a hard line to walk as sometimes one thing that could be interpreted as advice or another option that hasn't been considered could be interpreted as advertising. My few Helsport posts could be interpreted this way easily, when I post about them I'm trying to present an option for consideration. I've brought the brand to Australia with the intention of offering another option in the market place, and because I can deal direct with the manufacture I don't have to go through an Australian "wholesaler/distributer" that causes the prices to be inflated. (I price match the Euro prices.)

There's going to be some big changes in outdoor retail in the coming years, we will gradually lose many smaller stores. The world has got small and the ability to be able to order products from overseas is getting easier. The price difference between the Australian prices and the USA/UK prices is often too much. I don't know if many people are aware the price difference between the two isn't down to greedy retailers, but rather that we have a wholesaler in the middle between us and the manufacture. MSR/Thermarest is a constant battle and often you can buy a product at retail in the US that is the same price as the Australian wholesale buy price. To counter this I have started to seek out manufactures that I can deal with direct and offer the products at the same price as overseas. I think this will be the only way that we can keep some level of employment in small stores in regional areas.

I feel in many ways the smaller retail shops should be treated the same as some of the cottage manufactures, we are small business who are passionate about what we do and the products that we supply, we don't have much money, legions of staff, or much buying power in the face of the big competition. But that said I love what I do, I love spending time in the mountains, and I love talking to people about what they are doing/where they are going. I personally would like to continue to be active on the forums and would be disappointed treated as a big bad retailer.

Thanks
Chris

I think Mark and others might be referring to some of the posts in this thread:

http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... 3&start=30

Paul certainly offered some useful advice in the thread whereas Chris-Toms Outdoors seemed to simply advertise.

I should say that I enjoy the posts from the cottage industry guys (ie. Terra Rosa Gear, Tier Gear, Undercling Mike, Franco re Tarptent) and hope they keep posting. Re the more blatant advertising, I'd suggest simply posting a reminder in the thread and moving those posts to the relevant forum.

[Chris-Toms Outdoors]

I have a question that should have been included in my previous post.
I almost exclusively use the gear that I sell. I don't want to sell people crap/something that I haven't used/or something that I believe in. My wife despairs with me because she says that I've just filled the shop with all the things that I like.
I find it difficult to post in the equipment forum because even though I may be giving an honest opinion on xyz that I use or have used it could be considered advertising because I have publicly declared my interest in my store. I hate lies false hoods and I'm pretty cynical with a lot of the advertising that's out there. So at the moment after my first few mistakes I barely post in the equipment forum.
My question is this. Should I go back to just being Chris (average user and pretend that I don't own a store) or should I stay as I am and run this risks of some of my opinions being treated as advertising because I own a shop?
I'd like to do the right thing but it seems like the line is very blurred and it can really depend upon the opinion of the person reading the post.
Thanks
Chris

[Strider]

One member that held such a position particularly well, Chris, was blacksheep back when he was an owner/director of Macpac. Cam's opinions were always honest, and brutally if necessary. It might be worth looking at some of his older posts for some perspective on this.

Franco also does a good job and has quite the reputation on forums locally and internationally for his impartial approach. Occassionally someone will accuse him of bias toward Tarptent, but given his involvement it is understandable that there would be some underlying passion for it.



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