Jagungal-Kosciuszko questions

[qldwanderer]

I'm planning a trip for the start of December but am having some trouble coming up with a route that will work so hoping for some advice as there seems to be plenty of knowledge on the Jagungal wilderness area in other threads.

I'll have 5 full days, with a half day either side (ie. arrive by car early afternoon, several hours of walking to first campsite). Ideally I'd like to be at a hut each night as they were one of the highlights when I walked through the area on my only other visit a few years ago, and the friends I'm taking will be visiting for the first time.

I'm looking at setting off from Round Mountain to make O'Keefes the first night (sunset is quite late, fit group). I'll want to go to Mt Kozi as well while in the area, but not too sure how to end up back at Round Mountain without a lot of retracing of steps. The last night I'm planning on possibly being at Round Mountain hut to make a very short walk out to buy some travel time for the trip home.

It looks like there is an option to drop packs and climb Jagungal quite easily between O'Keefe's and Valentine's hut as well. From distance this looks to be achieveable in a day given the time of year/daylight, but will be weather dependant.

Other potential starting points I have looked at are Dead Horse Gap, wiht a potential Kozi loop and then south to Cascade and Tin Mine Huts. Possibly more likely to see Brumbies in this section than on the higher Alpine areas in Jagungal?

Happy to walk 30km in a day on some of the very open fire trails, but with enough time on some of the slower areas then 20-25km will allow for lots of looking around etc. Open to all ideas including other peaks worth a wander up for the view etc.

[qldwanderer]

I should have also mentioned a couple of other potential starting points:
Charlotte's Pass, although I see camping within a few hours walk (half day to start and finish) could be problematic given the camping restrictions and potential weather in that area.
Guthega Powerstation is also an option and I recall the walk from there towards Valentine's is straight forward/easy.

[Walk_fat boy_walk]

Round Mtn to O'Keefes (presumably via Farm Ridge) in an afternoon is doable with longer daylight hours. You can drop packs to climb Mt J either at the weather station or further around where you cross the headwaters of the Tumut, but since both are at either end of the mountain and it isn't that big a climb you might as well just carry your packs over and keep going?

Not sure how you'll work Mt K in without making it a "through" walk, ie. arrange transport at Thredbo/Charlottes back to Round Mtn?

[qldwanderer]

Thanks for the response.. I can't see a way to arrange transport if it was to be a through walk, and a loop will make better use of time if I can make it work.
Good ida about Mt Jagungal though. Somehow I missed a thread from only 2 weeks ago asking a similar question, and one of the responses there was very useful, allbeit for a 10day round trip. I'm going to use that as a basis and see if I can make a 7 day trip work as a loop, either from Round Mountain or Guthega powersation, and do a sidetrip/daytrip to Kozi...

The thread is viewtopic.php?f=36&t=26183... If I do a loop starting at Guthega I can head north probably as far as O'Keefes, possibly Round Mountain, going via Mawsons and/or TinHut and back along the AAWT route taking in Valentine/ Grey Mare etc..
Probably a case of hoping for good weather for the side trip to Kozi as from what I can tell it will involve camping fairly high and in the open..

[kjbeath]

My advice is rather than attempting long distances all by fire trail, do shorter distances by walking through the open country with some sections along the fire trails. On a fine day the Kerries and the area from Mawsons Hut to Jagungal is some of the best walking possible. By walking the off track sections first it gives some flexibility in case of bad weather because they can be swapped around. The Main Range area deserves at least 3 days on its own.

[Lophophaps]

Qldwanderer, welcome to the forum. I agree with kjbeath above about shorter distances. Jagungal to Gungartan is brilliant country, and should not be rushed. Starting from Round Mountain and having five full days, the Main Range is too far. It could be done but the rush would be too much, at least for me. Further, if there's bad weather then you may find yourself unable to move. If this happened anywhere south of Tate then you could be stuck.

For five days a more modest trip is indicated, with the Main Range on another trip.
1 Round Mountain, Farm Ridge Hut site, 15 kilometres, about 300 metres climbing, on tracks.
2 Doubtful River, Cesjacks, Jagungal, 12 kilometres, about 300 metres climbing, most off tracks.
3 Mawsons Hut, Valentine Falls, Grey Mare Hut, 16 kilometres, about 300 metres climbing, all off tracks.
4 Side trip to Grey Mare Bogong (no track), 4 hours, then SMC Hut, 10 kilometres, about 100 metres climbing, track
5 Round Mountain Car Park, 13 kilometres, mainly flat, track

As I said in the other thread
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=26183
have a menu of side trips if you move faster, and be prepared to cut the trip short if necessary. On my last trip to KNP I was hailed on for an afternoon, and it was painful to walk. The trip before had a cold, windy downpour for three days. While walking was possible it was most unpleasant, and I was happy to be at Thredbo after I cut the trip short.

Any hut with a 4WD track will most probably have bike riders, so don't expect to be able to use the huts

[north-north-west]

Linking the two isn't really practical in that time frame unless it's a through walk, especially if you're wanting to hut it, so you're better off concentrating on one or the other - and at Christmas the Jagungal area will be a bit less crowded than the Main Range.

It's a pity the link between the fire trail on the Grey Mare and the Dargalls track is so overgrown, as you can do a neat little side trip to Grey Mare Mountain on the track and then knock off Grey Mare Bogong and . . . what's it's name - Bull Head Rock? . . . before dropping down to the rebuilt Pretty Plain Hut and following the firetrail back out. Still can, but a bit of it might be hard work. Otherwise, Loppy's route works well. Most of those days can be extended with other sidetrips or just general pottering around and exploring.

[Lophophaps]

A few "ifs" based on NNW's idea. If you are:
1 ahead of schedule; and
2 still feel like a challenge; and
3 don't mind scrub, and
4 the weather is fine
then going over the top to Pretty Plain Hut is a nice walk. Hardly anyone visits the hut, and it's peaceful.

Here's the route. From Grey Mare Hut take the aquaduct behind the chimney southish into the creek, then west and up. See if you can find the remains of the old Grey Mare FT where it runs north-south just west of a small valley. Follow this FT west and up to the treeline, then west and up again from the creek, maybe 15 minues from the trees-creek to the top. This little valley has a rock with a cairn. On top, maybe a side-trip to Grey Mare Bogong. Follow the track down until it swings NW, at which point the track vanishes in thick tree regrowth. Crash downhill until it opens out with a track again, then veer left and up, where it vanishes again into more regrowth. bash, smash, environmental impact until it stops in another clearing. Then follow the track across flatness, veer left to a small creek and turn right (west) with more regrowth down and west to above Pretty Plain Hut. At this point, unusually, there's a foot track. A GPS will assist in the scrubby sctions, as will a chain saw and/or a brushcutter.

Pretty Plain Hut is a fair way in time and distance from Round Mountain Car Park, so PPH should be the second-last night. If going to PPH, the last night could be at SMC or north of where the Hell Hole Creek FT meets the Round Mountain FT, plenty of spots, lots of reliable water. Or you could walk north from the Hell Hole Creek FT to Hell Hole Creek, nice open walking. Then go east to the Round Mountain FT. This bit I have not done; we came in over Mount Toolong. If you do this, please let me know if you emerge alive.

[north-north-west]

To make it easier I could probably dig out a GPX file for this; fairly sure I have the Grey Mare - Pretty Plain loop here somewhere.

But you'll owe me. Big time . . .

[north-north-west]

If it wasn't for the hut thing, I'd suggest my favourite route from Round Mtn, which is via the 15 Mile and over Far Bald and then down to Doubtful. There are huts but not that conveniently placed for the timetable. The Linesmens Huts are only about five km from the Round carpark, and the next one is BooBee, just past Far Bald. It's really good walking apart from the road bash section down to the river and over and up the other side. That bit can be done cross country by sidling the impoundment and then climbing straight up to Wuthering Heights, but it's a little awkward.

[climberman]

Thanks for the response.. I can't see a way to arrange transport if it was to be a through walk,

There are now a number of ride share businesses in the Snowies

Snowy Mountains Shuttles
Snowy Access

are two. I have no links to them financially or otherwise but think that its great there are now services.

[qldwanderer]

Thanks for all the replies. A few things in the last 1+ weeks delayed me getting back to this thread, but the suggestions look great. I can see the sense in aiming for shorter distances on more challenging terrain that fire trails, and I'll aim to do this where practicable. As someone said, it also allows for a contingency if weather becomes awful, and if the weather is good then there are lots of options for side trips etc.

I'll either start from Round Mountain, or Guthega Power station. It looks like Round Mountain is the better option in terms of not as much doubling back on the same track for in/out.

With 5 full days and 2 half days that will still allow for 4-5 hours walking each, we should be able to see quite a lot. I'll do some more research and post a draft trip up for feedback, although I'll likely use a fair bit of what has been suggested already.

[Lophophaps]

Round Mountain has about 1.5 kilometres walking over the same ground, car park to the RM Hut turnoff. Guthega PS has a possible repeat of 6 kilometres if you go in and out the same way, either to the west of Munyang Creek or the east past Disappointment Spur Hut. The loop as I describe above has a more remote feel to it, as there's no power lines. Also, GPS tends to attract hordes of people. Round Mountain is closer to Jagungal. In a straight line on my 1:100 map, RM is 126 mm and GPS is 223 mm. Starting at 8am in fine weather:
RM to Jagungal via Farm Ridge puts you on the summit mid-morning on day two.
GPS to Jagungal puts you on the summit mid-afternoon or later on day two.
It's possible to camp at RM. You could start walking at night from GPS to Disappointment Spur Hut, which might or might not have people. The RM trip has good wild water, and I've never treated water. North of GPS has suss water near the huts, but the water is good away from the huts.

[qldwanderer]

I've got bad timing as I've just seen the above response, which has some great information. Before reading it, this is what I'd come up with this afternoon. I should note that the plan is to arrive at the start location (RM or GPS) around 1-2pm which will give us a half day (and long daylight hours anyway), and the reverse on the way back, ie. back at the car by 12pm to allow for morning half of walking, and the afternoon half for driving. There will be 5 full days bewteen this 2 half days, so 7 days in total.

From GPS:
Day 1: GPS to White River via Horse camp hut - 10km
Day 2&3: Whites River Hut to Grey Mare Hut via the western loop that crosses Geehi River just north of Geehi Reservoir then continues past Grey Hill and Grey Mare Mountain. Approx 20km/day. Is this possible, and is there suitable camping along this route if the weather is bad?
Day 4: Grey Mare Hut to O'Keefes, 16km. Detour to Dershkos enroute and option to stroll up the firetrail sans pack towards Round Mountain in the afternoon.
Day 5: O'Keefe's to Valentines via Mt Jagungal
Day 6: Sans pack side trip to Mawsons Hut then leave for Disappointment Spur Hut from Valentines
Day 7: Disappointment Spur Hut to GPS carpark

There is probably a way to do something very similar from Round Mountain, and I'll look into that if need be. I think RM also has the advantage over GPS of not requiring park entry permit fees for the vehicle from what I've read.

[Lophophaps]

I've revised the walk a lot. As you have five full days and two half days it's possible to do a loop something like you describe. But please don't go down to Geehi Reservoir. It's a big drop and then a climb out and on roads, not nice.

From GPS:
Day 1: GPS to White River: possible, a road bash but not too hard or long.

Day 2 - This is not a good way. There's a lot of roads, not very pleasant. Also, there's a lot of height lost from the Dicky Cooper Creek to the dam. It's nice on the Grey mare range, but water may be a problem. A far better way is to go north to Valentines Hut, down the falls to the west, then to Grey Mare Hut. This is shorter, it's bushwalking and not going on a lot of roads, there's less climbing and there's reliable water in many places. Whites River to GM Hut should take a day.

Day 3 GM Hut, Jagungal, O'Keefes. Or better still, go east to Cesjacks.

Day 4 Bulls Peaks, Mawsons, Tin Hut

Day 5 Gungartan, side trip to Dicky Cooper Bogong, Disappointment Spur Hut

Day 6, Spare day, bad weather or side trip.

Day 7, Guthega PS

*** your original route

Day 4: Grey Mare Hut to O'Keefes. You could go over Jagungal with packs. By the time you back-track to collect the packs you could be at O'Keefes.

Day 5: O'Keefe's to Valentines via Mt Jagungal. Possible. I'd go via the east route, Bulls Peaks, avoids most river crossings. Stop at Mawsons. Or if you have climbed Jagungal, go up Doubtful Creek to Cesjacks and a bit further, camp near Bulls Peaks.

Day 6: Mawsons and Disappointment Spur. I'd take packs to Mawsons and then go over the Kerries. Descend Gungartan at Schlink Pass. Possible.

Day 7: Disappointment Spur Hut to GPS carpark.

I'll see if I can make a menu of places to visit from GPS. Your point about not needing to pay for Round Mountain is good.

[qldwanderer]

Wow, that is amazing. Thanks so much for taking the time. I've taken what you've suggested from GPS and turned it around and think this works from RM with a couple of caveats/unknowns. I hadn't realised the Geehi loop was a road on the map I was looking at, that would have been a disaster!

Day 1: RM to O'Keefes

Day2: O'Keefes, Mt Jagungal, Grey Mare Hut

Day 3: GM Hut, Valentines, Whites River Hut

Day 4: Whites River Hut, GPS (I've seen this stuff before, but rest of group hasn't been to Snowies before, so probably worth a look), Disappointment Spur Hut

Day 5: Disappointment, Gungarten, side trip to Dicky Cooper Bogon, Tin Hut

Day 6: Tin Hut, Mawsons, Bulls Peak, Cesjacks

Day 7: Cesjacks to RM Carpark

Caveats/Unknowns:
1. Bad weather somewhere and lost time would mean Day 6 takes the easier/shorter route and ends at O'Keefes for a 2nd night instead of Cesjack's.
2. Cesjack's to RM Carpark looks to be about 26+/-km, but need to investigate if it's possible to take a fairly direct line from Cesjack's to pickup the AAWT track at OKeefe's or slightly north of the hut.
3. Possible to gain an extra day by altering the Whites River/GPS/Disappointment Spur section. Again, hadn't realised it was a road to the west of the AAWT from GPS to White River, so will put that to a group vote at this end. Plenty of huts/track options with minimal doubling back in that area so should be fine.

RM is closer to home compared to GPS by about 45-60mins, so that allows extra walking time if it is a longer day from Cesjacks, and as well as no park entry fee, can also take the group to Cabramurra (highest or 3rd highest town in Australia).

Hopefully I haven't missed anything obvious!

[Lophophaps]

That's looking better. I'm glad that you are not going down to the dam - it's not a good walk at all.

The basic plan looks okay, with a few changes. I would not go further south than Schlink Pass. Side trip from there to Dicky Cooper Bogong, 2-3 hours return and maybe wander towards the Rolling Ground if the weather is fine and you have time. This will be good for the next trip. Cesjacks to RM car park is too far in a day. it can be done but it's a stretch for the first walk in the area. I suggest doing the walk anti-clockwise as this gets the river crossing over and the walk from SMC (aka Dersckos, not sure how to spell it so I say SMC) to RM car park is nice and flat.

I'll find a 5 day plus two half days walk based on Round Mountain-Cesjacks-Jagungal-Mawsons-Schlink-Grey Mare-SMC-RM. This will take in a lot of brilliant places, a lot of potential side trips, mainly away from the masses, possible good high campsites, and will show you some of the best walking around Jagungal.

[rcaffin]

> Day 1: RM to O'Keefes
LONG day! There are some hills on the way.

> Day2: O'Keefes, Mt Jagungal, Grey Mare Hut
Or 2 days, depending on your route.

> Day 3: GM Hut, Valentines, Whites River Hut
Longish. Stopping at Schlink is more normal.

> Day 4: Whites River Hut, GPS (I've seen this stuff before, but rest of group hasn't been to Snowies before, so probably worth a look), Disappointment Spur Hut
GPS is pointless for a start, and I think the bridge over Whites (to Disappointment) at GPS is closed. Dunno why. Flood damage?

> Day 5: Disappointment, Gungarten, side trip to Dicky Cooper Bogon, Tin Hut
Zigzagging somewhat? Long day off track - quite long.

> Day 6: Tin Hut, Mawsons, Bulls Peak, Cesjacks
Possible if you know how. Skip side trip to Mawsons.

> Day 7: Cesjacks to RM Carpark
Ho Hum

You have a problem. You are planning what would be a rather ambitious route without the height changes and the off-track snow grass. As you are new to the area, this is understandable. You had better take a couple of extra days food, as you will need it. Of course, if the weather goes bad while you are at the S end, you are going to be rather hungry by the end.

Alternately, be a LOT more flexible and turn back after Day 3. Yes, I know the area extremely well, and I never make hard schedules there. I have had 40 C days there, and I have had hailstorms, both in December. If it is hot you may be driven mad by the Big Black Flies (and the Little Black Flies).

Cheers
Roger

[Mark F]

RM to O'Keefes via Farm Ridge is a very comfortable day, via Derschkos is a bit long. Almost 3 sides of a triangle RM to O'Keefes via Farm Ridge, O'Keefes to Derschko's, Derschko's to RM.

Bridge over Munyang River at Guthega PS (access to northern aquaduct) is closed due to flood damage in late winter 2016 (possibly reinstated this summer). For me the northern aqueduct is the most pleasant route to Schlink Pass/Whites River but the Southern Aqueduct which starts after the steep climb out of GPS is also far preferable to walking up the road.

You indicate you are able to do longish days. This is a more energetic itinerary which can be reversed.

Day 1. RM to Derschko's - easy day/half day.
Day 2. Derschko's - Schlink via Valentines Falls, visit Grey Mare.
Day 3. Schlink, Dicky Cooper Bogong, Main Range - choice of campsite dependent of weather/legs.
Day 4. Day trip to Koscuisko, Mt Townsend.
Day 5. Main Range, Schlink Pass, Gungartin, Tin Hut.
Day 6. Tin Hut, Jagungal, O'Keefes Hut.
Day 7. O'Keefes to RM.

[qldwanderer]

Wow, lots of interesting alternatives and things for me to think about. Thanks for all the responses. I'll have a bit more look at the recent suggestions, but looks like I'm getting close to having a suitable route for the week trip.
Thanks for all the helpful responses, very much appreciated.

[qldwanderer]

Resurrecting this thread as I've been very absent of late. User Lophaphaps has been very helpful in the background with helping (planning??) a really nice route for me. I'll outline what I'm doing when I've got a bit more time on the weekend. In the meantime, does anyone know if the 1:50k series of maps is available anywhere? My understanding is that this are discontinued and it's a choice of the 1:25k or 1:100k maps. I've got the 1:100K but I'm after more detail.

I can find the 1:25k maps easily enough and will need 3 of these to cover the area I'm visiting, but ideally someone knows additional information on the 1:50k series availability so I can pick this scale up instead.

[Mark F]

The only 1:50k map I know of for the area is the Spatial Vision Koscuiszko National Park map. It may have had a name change to Koscuiszko Alpine Area. I have not examined the map so can't comment on it's completeness or accuracy.

[rcaffin]

How about the standard issue CMA topo map, Mount Kosciusko 8525-II & III ?
It's 1:50k and what most of us have been using for the last ... 40 years.
Cheers
Roger

[Mark F]

How about the standard issue CMA topo map, Mount Kosciusko 8525-II & III ?
It's 1:50k and what most of us have been using for the last ... 40 years.
Cheers
Roger

Only useful if you can find a source. Yours are collectors items now.

[Lophophaps]

Sutmap have some good 1:40 maps of KNP, notably Schlink Pass and Jagungal.
http://www.sutmap.com/sutmap.htm
The CMA maps were and are most useful, but sadly are now out of print. I wish that popular areas such as KNP and the AAWT had 1:50s. the 1:25s cover so little ground and mean that many maps need to be carried.

[rcaffin]

My map collection is now a national treasure? Well, irreplaceable, anyhow?
This is NOT progress!

I don't take my maps outdoors. I take A3 photocopies of them instead. Live long and prosper (or survive).

Cheers
Roger

[MeanderingFlyFisher]

I find Rooftops "Kosciuszko National Park Forest Activities Map Jindabyne-Khancoban"double sided 1:50000 very useful and covers the area.
By the way I did pick up the 1:50000 Mount Kosciuszko and Khancoban maps very recently on ebay for $16 posted.Looks like I got a bargain.

[Mark F]

Sutmap have some good 1:40 maps of KNP, notably Schlink Pass and Jagungal.
http://www.sutmap.com/sutmap.htm
The CMA maps were and are most useful, but sadly are now out of print. I wish that popular areas such as KNP and the AAWT had 1:50s. the 1:25s cover so little ground and mean that many maps need to be carried.

Some of the VicMap 1:50 series cover most of the Main Range. Have a look at Geehi 8525-S and Toolong 8525-N. Tom Groggin 8524-N covers south of Dead Horse Gap.

[rcaffin]

Please note: you can still buy all the Lands Dept 1:25k topo maps in printed form for about $10-$11 each. They are the source for all the 3rd party maps anyhow, so why go more expensive?
The 1:50 series ... um. Could be difficult.

Cheers

[Mark F]

You can also download the NSW 1:25k maps for free, and either print at Office Works or anywhere that can do A0? prints, or, take screen shots and print A3 or A4 (my current method). They even come out ok in grey scale if you don't have a colour printer. The main thing is to go around the edge of the print and write in the UTM coordinates on the grid. You can of course reduce the scale to 1:50k or anything else with this method or have OfficeWorks print at 50% reduction.

When looking at walking areas now I rarely look at a paper map at home, just pull up the GeoPDF in Adobe Acrobat Reader on a decent sized screen - 27" 2560x1440 is excellent but a 24" monitor works well. The ability to zoom to 150% or 200% allows old, tired eyes to pick up detail in the maps that would otherwise be missed.