Nellies Glen Sketch Map

[DaveNoble]

I mentioned in another post that a scanned copy of the Gundungura Guide is available from my website to download. This was prepared from information prepared by Sydney University Rover Crew and published in 1970.

Another smaller project of SURC was the compilation of a small sketch map that filled gap between Katoomba and the Gangerang Sketch Map of Myles Dunphy. The map was drawn by Geoff Ford in 1961.

Thanks to Dr Geoff Ford for making a scanned copy of the map available to the public domain. The map, background material to it, the Gundungura Guide and background material to the Gundungura Project can be downloaded from the following page -

http://www.david-noble.net/SURC/GundunguraGuide.html

Note - that the title of the map is "Nellys Glen Sketch Map" (rather than the present accepted spelling of "Nellies") and a small section of the Gangerang Skecth Map has been appended to the bottom.

I hope to soon include a scanned copy of the Gundungura Map.

Dave

[Allchin09]

Many thanks for providing this Geoff, and Dave for sharing here. Always love a sketch map, top stuff!

I've heard much about this map but this is the first time I've seen it. Interesting to note a few unique names (Shattered Canyon, Rhubarb? Rock).

Was Geoff aware of the Dunphy "Sketch map of Megalong Valley, Cox River and Narrow Neck Peninsula tracks & trails" from 1922 which covers a similar area? There was also a later 1934 edition with updates by Ninian Melville.

Interesting reading the Gundungura Project background document makes.

Regarding Lost Rock, the maps I have of the 1914 trip (which I assume were made around the time of the trip) refer to the spot where they got lost as "The Dungall Boulder". I'd have to go back and read the journals to see if that's what it was also called in there (but as mentioned, they were re-written). On the map, next to "The Dungall Boulder" is text in a different pen of "Lost Rock". I'm unsure at what stage this name was added, but I assume later than the original map. There were a few name changes in that area (IE Dolomite Ridge had Megalith added in similar pen) on the map.

The Kanangra Tops and Environs map from 1937 has Lost Rock in roughly the same place as it is today, although it's a little hard to place it exactly as the map isn't the most accurate in that area.

My take on it is as follows:
That the spot where Dunphy and Gallop became lost was originally called "The Dungall Boulder". This name was later changed (before 1937) to "Lost Rock" and appeared so on subsequent Dunphy maps. The location matches that of the current topo maps (just North of the head of Wooglemai Creek).
I believe Gundungura 1 names this feature as "Revelation Rock", and misplaces Dunphys "Lost Rock" to a feature East of today's Mt Pallin.

[Grabeach]

Alex; re Nellies Glen map. You should have asked to see it when you were at my place! I bought a copy (from Paddy Pallin?) about 30 years ago. I probably bought it because it had the tramway on it, and I certainly remember being disappointed that it didn't have either Esgate Pass or Bottleneck Pass on it. I don't think I've looked at it since.

[LachlanB]

Thanks for uploading the guide Dave. There's some really interesting stuff in it. Looking forward to being able to have a look at the Gundungura sketch map too!

[DaveNoble]

Regarding the present lookout that is marked as "Lost Rock" on the maps. It is certainly not a boulder, more like angled slabs. And it has a view of Christies Creek which the original Dungall Boulder/Lost Rock was not supposed to. So, I think the boulder is in a different location - probably nearby. Probably a granite boulder somewhere near. I doubt that Dunphy would have plotted its location that accurately (especially if they were lost). At one time there was a log book at the present Lost Rock - in a container in the cairn.

[michael_p]

Thank you Dave and Geoff for putting this valuable document on the web for everyone to access.

Cheers,
Michael.

[DaveNoble]

Spelling of Nellies Glen

The Glen was named by John Britty North (The Father of Katoomba - who started the mining operations there) after one of his daughters - Ellen North. Now that daughter was often called "Nellie" (or "Nelly"?). I am not sure how it was spelt, and it seems that a lot of others are not sure either. I have looked at a lot of old maps and newspaper articles from the 1890's - 1950's and they seem to spell it both ways (about evenly). Jim Smith is his "How To See The Blue Mts" book spells it "Nelly's Glen" in the first edition and the same in the second edition (except one of the maps has it spelt "Nellies Glen"). Will Hilder in his book of daywalks calls it "Nells Glen". Jim Smith is his book on Ben Esgate spells it "Nellies Glen". Brian Fox in his Geographical Encyclopaedia spells it both ways in separate entries. It is "Nellies Glen" on the current topo maps. Confusing!

[johnw]

Yes, many thanks to Geoff and Dave for making these available. I really enjoy bushwalking related history and old handcrafted maps - they always seem to have a "treasure map" feel about them. I've always thought of it as "Nellies Glen" but given that it's a nickname I guess either spelling is correct?

[Allchin09]

Re Nellies Glen,

The 1965 "List of names approved by Blue Mountains National Park Trust Committee" includes the name Nellys Camp Creek with a description of "at foot of Nellys Glen, Megalong. Withdrawn". This document was compiled by Dunphy for use by the committee.

The entry appears to give weight to the acceptance of the "Nellys" spelling. It's unfortunate that there isn't an entry for "Nellys Glen" itself in the document, however, the 1960s Blue Mountains and Burragorang Valley Tourist map has "Nellys Glen" referring to the gully section.

The Geographic Names Register lists Nellies as the official spelling (assigned 1970) with Nellys as the previous name and a variant.

It's interesting to note that the Ford map places in further down in the valley itself, which makes more sense for he describes it as the location of an old mining village! The few older maps I've looked at place it where it is currently mapped and all bar one with the Nellys spelling.

[geford]

Dear Allchin
First, Megalong (and Nelly's Glen map): In 1950s Myles Dunphy had been rejecting Paddy Pallin's requests for a bushwalkers sketch map linking popular Gangerang map to Katoomba, which is when Paddy requested me to do it. It would be rewriting history to now say Pallin should have used a 1922 Dunphy map. It's in the State Library (along with hundreds of others). Can I suggest that Paddy needed something more up-to-date?

Incidentally, nomenclature is a great study. Myles was to insist that only names he'd approved of should be used (even before 1966 GNB). Piffle. Taking Shattered Canyon you mentioned - perhaps it has changed since 1950s: how many times have you looked over it (from Rhubarb Rock)? We'd get a drink from the pools (shown on map) and “rhubarb” repeated was expression for unintelligible crowd chatter . . . sound of the Mitchell's Creek falls!


Separately, ‘Lost Rock’ at Kanangra (and Gundungura map):
You are a fantastic student! Other researchers had not been able to recover original 1914 maps from the long metres and metres of boxes in the Dunphy Archives. Will you be sharing more of your findings? Many old men rewrite history to improve their legacy, and Dunphy did it more than most. I'm trying not to. If you'd read my 1996 story in Dave Noble's book "Press On Regardless" [online for a long time], you'd know what maps we used for walking in 1960. (We didn't have the "Environs" road map you write already showed ‘Lost Rock’!)

Your original 1937 map is unique, so should be donated to the State Library to go with the other five hundred or so of Myles's maps there. (An original published 1937 must be very fragile now.) The SURC & SUBW were not competitive - as bushwalkers we liked using Dunphy's maps. Without your map, everybody would know Dunphy had only located his ‘Lost Rock’ at Revelation Rock after the SURC 1961 Gundungura map (published 1962). Yet you say he located it there on your map published 1937!! Since Dunphy wrote there was not a view into Christy's country, then he would not have been on Revelation Rock after all! I'm too incapacitated to go out now, but some younger walkers could check on site for 'Dungall Boulder' (the real 'Lost Rock') and see if 'Gallops Rock' could have been it!
- Geoff Ford

[DaveNoble]

Your original 1937 map is unique,
- Geoff Ford

I believe this was one of the Dunphy maps that were available at Paddy Pallins. Of the Blue Mts, the following Dunphy Maps could be bought from Paddy Pallins (1970's/80's) -

Grose Valley
Gangerang and Wild Dog Mountains
Kanangra Tops (Boyd Plateau)
Kanangra Walls area (- a small map)
The Kowmung
Bindook Highlands

as well as the Blue Mts and Burragorang Tourist Map

I would have to hunt up my copies to check the actual titles of the maps.

[rcaffin]

I'd love to see the Kowmung map.

Cheers
Roger

[Allchin09]

I'd love to see the Kowmung map.

If we're talking about the same map, you should be able to grab a copy from Paddys or online from the Colong Foundation for $10 if you don't already have it https://www.colongwilderness.org.au/sto ... les-dunphy

[climberman]

Thanks all - lovely thread

[LachlanB]

You should be able to grab a copy from Paddys

Does Paddy Pallin still stock them?

[Allchin09]

You should be able to grab a copy from Paddys

Does Paddy Pallin still stock them?

The city store on Kent Street did last I visited. But as mentioned, the Colong Foundation has a good supply of both the Kowmung and Gangerange maps.

[geford]

Lost Rock (& Gundungura map) thread:
Lost Rock at Kanangra: Dungall Rock? Gallop Rock?? or Revelation Rock!
This spot is so important to Bushwalking Heritage, it should have a plaque! The interest shown by All Chin is impressive.

Allchin 09 wrote (in Nelly's Glen thread): <<The Kanangra Tops and Environs map from 1937 has Lost Rock>> and Dave Noble responded <<I believe this was one of the Dunphy maps that were available at Paddy Pallins>>. Not when I was active when I knew Paddy!
Not many of us are still out there who were born before WWII, walking in 1940s with parents, climbing in 1950s with school mates and exploring in 1960s with uni students. But me? my ghost will continue to roam out there!
In a history research study, I examined 1920s / 1930s files from Crown Lands Dept - which included papers by Myles Dunphy conflicting with what is now understood . . . . old men tend to amend their legacy. With his cardiomyopathy Myles could not serve with the Army Corps in WWI and so had to prove himself not a coward to society by being seen to perform Heroic feats around the then Mountain Trails. Mere mortals like us were the beneficiaries. We are indebted to his cartographic skills which served us so well with bushwalking sketch maps. Now that people use topo maps, it is difficult to conceive what it was like for us when mapping was restricted for ordnance purposes (but in WWII there were Jap maps better than ours!!)
Take care interpreting the massive amount of Dunphy material placed in the State Library archives. It is encouraging for historical comparisons that some of his early sketches are being placed online. A meticulous draftsman, Myles would constantly amend his sketches for more accuracy. The maps which were published went through many “editions” with updates. When researching copies (in the Library), where Myles had added to a sketch a notation can often be found, even a date of the change sometimes.
When you youngsters are solving the issue where and when Dunphy named Lost Rock on Boyd Plateau, that shadow you thought that you saw in that tree was my spirit, haunting you and wishing you success! When you write up your findings, that feeling on your shoulder may be me reading it!
Naturally, I’d prefer the plaque to be at Revelation Rock (where we’d put a visitors' book) on our Uni Rover Trail for 1961-drawn Gundungura map! Although I used restricted aerial photos for accuracy, our field studies were exhausting. I wore out two pairs of hob-nailed boots. Could the pair I nailed to a tree at the start of the trail (Rocky Top Swamp camp) be still there?
Geoff Ford (geford).

[wildwanderer]

Thanks for the accounts and anecdotes above Geoff! Fascinating to hear more of the history from one who was there.

and thank you for the map and Gundungura guide book!

[Allchin09]

Thanks for the comments Geoff, I've a love of bushwalking and bushwalking history, and it's always interesting to hear different perspectives on the same subjects!

I'll have to go off and do some more research on the Lost Rock matter, however, I acquired a book last week and upon flicking through it found some relevant information regarding the Nellies / Nellys debate.

From Katoomba to Jenolan Caves: The Six Foot Track 1884-1984 / Jim Smith 1984 (Page 77)

Nellie’s or Nelly’s?

According to Billy Lynch (‘E.D.H.’ 1896) the Aboriginal name for Nellie’s was ‘Kooranbarook.’ Europeans have been divided by between ‘Nellie’s’ and ‘Nelly’s.’ Both are used in old and recent maps and guidebooks, with or without a variably placed apostrophe. An early variant is ‘Nella’s Glen.’

We are not assisted in this dilemma by the disagreement of two authorities. Quilty 1948 states: ‘[J.B.] North was interested also in the Megalong side, and the Glen came to be known as ‘Nellie’s Glen’ named after his wife, Mrs. Nellie North.’ but Bennett 1971 says: ‘North named ‘Nelly’s Glen’ after his daughter Nellie.’ Genealogical research may establish whether Nellie was North’s wife or daughter.

Not all travellers were pleased with North’s immortalisation of his wife or daughter. ‘Locksley’ 1887 referred to ‘the picturesque fissure known by the rather simpering name of Nellie’s Glen.’ While Jose 1888 described the ‘huge cleft (known most unreasonably as Nellie’s Glen)...’ Perhaps these early writers [thought] that the feminine and domesticated ring of the name was inappropriate for such wild scenery.

North intended the name to refer to the whole reach of the valley between Radiata Plateau and Narrow Neck where his mining activities were situated. Popular usage centred the name of the narrow pass in the cliffs utilised by the bridle trail and known in the earliest days as ‘Megalong Cleft’ (sometimes as Megalong ‘Cliff’, ‘Clift’ or ‘Pass’). This sliding of place names is an interesting phenomenon that I will explore in a later book on Blue Mountains place names.

The waterfall at the base of the Glen was originally known as the ‘Ethal Falls’ and sometimes as (yet another) ‘Bride’s’ or ‘Bridal Veil.’ Later these names were lost and the whole series of falls, of which the Ethal Fall is the last, became known as the ‘Bonnie Doon Falls.’

Appendix 8 of the book regarding 'The Black's Ladder Mystery' opens with the following paragraph:

Note: The term 'Megalong Cleft' is used here for the break in the cliffs known today as Nellie's Glen, and the term 'Nellie's Glen' for the reach of the Megalong Valley between Radiata Plateau and Narrow Neck.

Further, in Smith's 'How to See the Blue Mountains, 2nd Ed.' (1986), a section on 'Nelly's Glen: Radiata Plateau and Narrow Neck' included the following comments:

The routes into the arm of the Megalong Valley between Radiata Plateau and Narrow Neck are: the Water Board ladders, the Devil's Hole, and Nelly's Glen. Rockclimbers have made a track at the base of the Narrow Neck cliffs from the bottom of the ladders. Nelly's Glen is the start of the 100 year old 'Six Foot Track,' a bridle trail between Katoomba and Jenolan Caves. Nelly's Glen refers more correctly to the whole reach of the Megalong Valley between Elphinstone (Radiata) Plateau and Narrow Neck, The break in the cliffs forming the start of the Six Foot Track is known as the Megalong Cleft.

Smith's maps reflect this description, with 'Nelly's Glen' placed in the valley between Radiata Plateau and Narrow Neck, and 'Megalong Cleft' where the currently GNB approved 'Nellies Glen' lies.

Jim Barrett, in his 'Place Names of the Blue Mountains and Burragorang Valley' (1994) book provides the following entry and footnote:

Nellies Glen
Entry - Believed to be named after Nellie North, wife of the mining entrepreneur J.B. North, but it has also been attributed to North's daughter. The Aborigines' name for the glen was Kooranbarook.

Footnote - At the bottom of Nellie's Glen at the turn of the 19th century was the site of a village which served the Megalong miners, then known as Dunbar's Flat. The bush walkers of post World War II always affectionately referred to this spot as 'the pub site', because the centre of the thriving little community was Long's Hotel.

So what does all this mean?

Spelling
Well, it seems that both variants of the spelling have been used throughout the years (and given the same pronunciation you can see how this could come about). Nellies is the currently GNB approved version, and if Smith and Barrett are both right in that North's wife was named Nellie, then you would think this version should prevail inline with GNB naming policy (spelling of names should be consistent which what/who they are named after). Some further research into 'Nellie North' would be useful here.

The spelling used on Ford's map seems consistant with the usage of the time.

Location
This I think is a little more interesting and requires further research. Smith is quite clear on where the historic usage was applied (in the valley) however it would be useful to have some more understanding as to how he came about this interpretation. I would think an inspection of the historical accounts of the Six Foot Track (which Smith covers in another publication of his I have but are yet to read) would reveal where the name was applied.

If it is the case that historically the name applied to the valley, then the currently application of the GNB naming to Smiths 'Megalong Cleft' is incorrect.

[Allchin09]

Further to the above, I've found some more information on John Britty North and his relations.

'The Burning Mists of Time' (Pells and Hammon, 2009) includes a panel on North, with the below information, attributed to Karen Carlson and Brian Fox

At age 24 he married Clarissa Mary Hack. Over the next 20 years they had nine children, six daughters and three sons.

Four roads in Katoomba are named in connection with North's family ... and Nellies Glen Road, named after his daughter Ellen Mary North.

Included in the panel are photos of two tombstones containing the below text:

In loving memory of
Nellie
Ellen Mary North
Died Jan 24th 1936
At Rest
And Of
Clara Minnie North
Died Aug 9th 1939
United

In loving memory of
Clarissa Mary North
Beloved Wife of
John Britty North
Died 21st October 1906
Aged 74 years
"At Rest"
Also in loving memory of
John Britty North
Beloved Husband of the above
Died 14th October 1917
Aged 86 years
"At Rest"

A newspaper article from 'The Blue Mountains Echo', 6th March 1909 also states the Glen was named by North after his daughter Nellie.
Accessible through Trove at http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107961329

These sources all point to the 'Nellie' spelling, with attribution to his daughter, not wife.

[DaveNoble]

Well done Alex with this research.

Dave

[geford]

Nelly's Glen map thread:
I had done my “Last Post” last week, but now I’m reappearing as a wisp of smoke from my pyre to share some more advice. As yet, I do not know what is the obsession with the spelling of “Nellie”. As a pet name for Ellen, in English it has been spelt many ways but the formal way was “Nelly” - in use by communities for hundreds of years. You are too late if you want your money back for buying a sketch map by Myles Dunphy or by me because we used a 1950s' Megalong locality spelling of Nelly. My map was for Paddy but I doubt his grandson Tim would give you a refund now! Did you keep your receipt?

If you want to re-organise historic terms, should you start with the English characters used to express the Aboriginal term Kanangra -> Gandangara -> Gundungura. The spelling Gundungurra is now current, although the phonetics meant an r and r were each sounded separately! Orthography research is a study in itself.

First two mea culpae: Regarding Ellen North, I am ashamed that earlier without confirming, I’d made an assumption the one from Katoomba was the one who had a daughter she called “Nellie” after marrying Charles Stewart in 1899. Also, I’m sorry Alex, I thought All Chin was a pseudonym, but Dave Noble tells me you are for real!
Research requires interpretation as well as confirmation. It is not just reading a book (or a newspaper): Dave is mistaken in referring to that as “well done”. Dave sent me a triumphal message from your “research” that the North family had approved the informal spelling Nellie.

The two Philips' book I’d added to my reference library as soon as it was available. The study of the grave stones at Gore Hill is research attributed to archivist Karen Carlson. Because for Ellen's parents there is a single headstone (giving both death dates, 1906 and 1917), it could not have been placed at the time of burial. The more substantial stone memorial photographed by Karen which includes “Nellie”, lists herself, Ellen (1862-1936), and other family members from grandfather d.1889 to her eldest sister Clara (1860-1939).

On the surface without checking further, I’m inclined to support Dave that this was spelling used by “family”. Family History studies require examination of many documents, and I’ve passed (I’m past) that. You need to investigate the informant and who commissioned the work. This memorial may have been erected before death of sister Ethel (1872- 1947). I haven’t examined the documentary evidence essential for research, but after death of father John Britty jnr, eldest brother John George would have become ‘head’ of family. But he died 84yo just before Clara! Next in line was youngest sibling Alfred Herbert (1875-1941). He is the candidate to confirm as Dave's “family”, having this expensive memorial erected after Clara's death and before Ethel died.

You would have noticed (but did not mention) that the death notice which is taken as placed by family (repeated because it gave wrong date first time), gave her name as Nell. Yes, as “Nell”!

With the Mists of Time, I’m withdrawing again to my campfire, but the real question for this bushwalking forum is: “What’s Your Point?”; “So What!”
Geoff Ford (geford@tpg.com.au)

[puredingo]

This is playing out like a silence of the lambs scene....Ford as the cagey Hannibal Lector and Alchin as the respectful yet dogged agent Clarice Starling.

[Lotsafreshair]

Such great info here... a treasure trove of absolute map nerd (like me) gold. Thanks Dave and all for your wisdom.

[jonnosan]

Not sure why, but I am oddly bothered that this 1909 'Nellys Glen" tourist sketch map hasn't been referenced yet. So here it is: http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-230004065/view

[DaveNoble]

Not sure why, but I am oddly bothered that this 1909 'Nellys Glen" tourist sketch map hasn't been referenced yet. So here it is: http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-230004065/view

I had sent that link in an email to Geoff Ford, as well as a lot of other links from trove and other sources. There was a about a 50/50 split between using "Nellys" and "Nellies".

Dave

[geford]

Oh, Dave - in the past you have done a lot to further records of bushwalking, for which I've been grateful. You have a good legacy of your own. It's past time to be point-scoring off an old man whose health has failed.

The 1961 publication by the late Paddy Pallin of my "Nelly's Glen" map is just that - a 1961 map published by a dead man! Well before modern computers or internet searches!!! Live with it, or do your own. Nelly was the then actual location spelling - any other is irrelevant (and does not matter). For those using internet, look at the official term on early then Parish Maps, now at Lands Dept Historic Maps site.
What the Surveyor General decided was what mattered for official geographic names. It can be concluded that the 'Nellie' records for the location published (in list by Brian Fox) were geographically erroneous.
An intriguing thing on earliest maps is that the Glen seems to be the gully above the cliff. By 1940s/50s (my time) it was as Jonnosan has contributed.

For those who have followed posts with reference to my SURC Gundungura map (drawn 1961) and Myles Dunphy having RETROSPECTIVELY relocated his "Lost Rock" to replace both his own "Dungall Boulder" and SURC "Revelation Rock", I hope somebody may still be able to accurately locate all three! Young Alex Allchin and I have been privately communicating - once I'd found (via Dave) that Alex was responsible for the centenary re-enactment of the 1914 trip: when Dunphy had meant to follow a mountain trail (then marked with blazed trees) across 'The Boyd' but had missed it at Ginkin with the unintended "Kowmung Adventure" resulting. Myles was a legend in his own time. My age group of bushwalkers revered him.
Geoff Ford (geford@tpg.com.au)

[juxtaposer]

The Lost Rock v Revelation Rock question is something I have investigated. From the Dungall Boulder (Lost Rock) in 1914 (Dunphy changed the name in 1934), Dunphy noted that Mt. Colong and the Boyd Range could be seen, so the view must also include part of the valley of West Christys Creek. Myles and Bert had pitched their tent on the Boyd Range Track about a quarter mile west of the Dungall Boulder (it's the closest viewing point east of the track). To say there must be another boulder somewhere out there the real Lost Rock is a weak argument. Geof, it's time to admit you got this one wrong. Cheers.

[geford]

Please go to Gundungura Map topic for comments on part played in 1960s by SURC Gundungura Project.
A discussion whether in 1950s Nelly’s Glen (Lands Dept official name) was known in public as Nellie's is not the most suitable topic for comments on ‘The Boyd’ (Kanangra).
Geoff