Pine Tier Lagoon Rd to Johnsons Lagoon - info?

[ofuros]

Noooo......say it isn't so. Sad news if it goes ahead

[GTL]

Noooo......say it isn't so. Sad news if it goes ahead

Why?

[ofuros]

If I've gone to the effort of walking in & paddling across to visit
the old hut & island, the last thing I want to be woken up by is a
buzzing helicopter bringing guests in & be surrounded with
temporary new accommodation, even if its done in a environmentally
culturally sensitive way....call me nostalgic.

http://riverfly.com.au/resources/hallsislandmedia/

[north-north-west]

Noooo......say it isn't so. Sad news if it goes ahead

Why?

Because anything added to this place will damage it and destroy the experience of being out there.

[flyfisher]

Agreed,NNW.

FF

[geoskid]

Noooo......say it isn't so. Sad news if it goes ahead

Why?

Because anything added to this place will damage it and destroy the experience of being out there.

Nice photos NNW, I have not been there, but has been on the wish list of places to go. Surprised at what the vegetation looks like - I imagined vegetation a lot shorter - never mind.
However, I don't accept that Daniel Hacketts proposal will damage it and destroy the experience of being out there. For whom? The people that go there regularly? Who are they?
I am also aware that some use the word 'precedent ' as used in the legal context and apply it to these proposals as if it is the same - it is not. If anything, one approval will very likely hamper the efforts of another, the very opposite of precedent in the legal context. I am sure there are legal experts here that can expound on this.
Tasmania can't have it both ways- that is - reject resource extraction in favour of tourism from one quarter , and have eco tourism rejected from another quarter. I think what is missing, is putting aside ones individual wants for a least worst endeavour.
I mean really, waking up in the outdoors and having ones sensibilities offended is very , very small fry compared to what is going on in the world, and is not at all likely to be what does us (the species) in.
Of course, people are free to worry about whatever they want, just as they are free to walk wherever there are no people.

[geoskid]

Just quickly to add NNW, the reason I responded to your post is because I know you can handle more than one view at time.
I don't necessarily have answers, I just don't think a narrow view is helpful for anyone.

[GTL]

Noooo......say it isn't so. Sad news if it goes ahead

Why?

Because anything added to this place will damage it and destroy the experience of being out there.

[geoskid]

GTL,
Have you got any thoughts to go with that emoticon.

[GTL]

GTL,
Have you got any thoughts to go with that emoticon.

Yeah, I do.

Last I heard we are trying to promote Tasmania as tourist destination. Go for walks, catch a fish, whatever. But nooo, we have those who oppose hard working people who try to enhance just that . We have a huge area up there, 1000 lakes, so why can't people that can't walk get the change to have a look at just one?

And NNW, I'm sure most of your pretty pics there won't be affected, so you can relax

BTW, me got nothing to do with this thing, just sick of lies

[geoskid]

GTL,
Have you got any thoughts to go with that emoticon.

Yeah, I do.

Last I heard we are trying to promote Tasmania as tourist destination. Go for walks, catch a fish, whatever. But nooo, we have those who oppose hard working people who try to enhance just that . We have a huge area up there, 1000 lakes, so why can't people that can't walk get the change to have a look at just one?

And NNW, I'm sure most of your pretty pics there won't be affected, so you can relax

BTW, me got nothing to do with this thing, just sick of lies

I don't think anyone is lying or opposing hard working people.
Anyway, thanks for expressing your thoughts - better than just an emoticon.

[GTL]

[Graham51]

I walked up to Olive Lagoon and Mary Tarn via Gowan Brae Road last week. You need to get permission from The Tasmanian Aboriginal Centre and pay a $25 fee for your party to either walk or cycle across their land. No vehicles are allowed unless you are a member of the Aboriginal community.

[Lophophaps]

A lot depends on the land tenure and if the entity charging $25 has a legal basis. Some years ago there was an event at Sheepyard Flat on the Howqua River in Victoria. The event organisers charged people to cross the bridge, which was most certainly outside their authority - it was a public road. In legal-babble this was ultra vires. Another group charged people to stay in a public hut. Oops.

So the best way to investigate this is to check the land tenure, and see if there is a basis at law for charging anything. If so, where does it start? If it's a public road and/or crown land then there may be no basis at law for charging anything. Remedies exist.

[Warin]

If it's a public road and/or crown land then there may be no basis at law for charging anything.

Crown land can be rented or leased and then charges can be made.
Public roads can be closed for events (e.g. rallies in State Forests) .. and charges can then be made.

[Lophophaps]

Crown land can be rented or leased and then charges can be made. Public roads can be closed for events (e.g. rallies in State Forests) .. and charges can then be made.

Quite so, which is why I said "there may be no basis". Note the word "may". The status of these aspects should be investigated.

[slparker]

Gowan Brae is freehold land administered by the TAC.

[Paul]

slparker, you are saying it is freehold land administered by the TAC. But who owns it ?

Paul.

[Lophophaps]

It seems that this may be land owned by the Aboriginal Land Council. I cannot find any maps or documentary information about any conditions like leasing. In two places the absence of clear maps and land management advice has led to challenges about where bushwalkers may and may not camp. Neither manager replied so I camped and walked where I wanted. Land managers are obliged to make conditions clear. I have a high-level complaint about an agency that asserted that I was breaking the law but did not make this clear. It is impossible to comply with rules that are not clearly stated. I expect the agency to make good financial loss to me caused by their acts of omission and commission.

It may be that as traditional users bushwalkers could say that free access is a given; I've successfully used this in another jurisdiction.

Pursuing the title aspect seems best.

[slparker]

The land is Owned by he Aboriginal Land Council and is freehold land. Before that it was also freehold land as part of the Polin estate.
The owners are entitled to restrict access should they so wish. As the ALC has also partnered with Tasmanian Land Conservancy to manage it I think that any nominal entry fee is reasonable.
Gowan Brae was 90% or so bush since it became freehold land way back. It is now being managed as a privately owned conservation project and an Indigenous cultural activity centre.

[Lophophaps]

It would be useful to review the words that entitle the ALC to charge for entry. A 30 day PWS Parks Pass costs $30, so charging $25 for one visit seems to me to be quite unreasonable. Many years ago there was a high charge for XC skiers to ski through a resort en route to remote regions. From memory, this was successfully challenged. I cannot recall the reasons. I never paid the fee. Can someone please post a map of the freehold land? Thanks.

[slparker]

I am not a lawyer but if you own land I presume that you can restrict access, certainly there is precedence in Tasmania where there are already large areas of freehold land where you need permission to access, Miller's Bluff is an example.

As to charging for access, I see no reason why someone cannot charge money to access private land but a lawyer might be best placed to advise on that one.

As i described, the owners are partnered with Tasmanian Land Conservancy to manage the land as it is of high ecological value. It is in essence a private park and Indigenous cultural centre.

Remember that this land has always been freehold. Well, at least since land grants in the colonial or post-colonial period anyway.

http://www.examiner.com.au/story/149423 ... -property/

I wouldn't believe The Exaggerator Newspaper either so you can check the facts yourself and buy a map of Tasmania showing land tenure but it costs $40. this is more than the entry to the land.:

https://www.tasmap.tas.gov.au/do/product/WALL/500000LTM

edit - a search of the TAC website and LISTmap shows the boundaries of the land - it looks like there are other areas of freehold land around the property as well.:

http://tacinc.com.au/wp-content/uploads ... n-Brae.pdf

[Paul]

Paul.

So it was purchased with, amongst other sources, funds from the Commonwealth Government ( The Examiner, May 11th 2103 )
Therefore I helped pay for it with my taxes, and I'm being told I have to pay yet again to walk through it. Dont think I will be.

Paul.

[north-north-west]

Paul.

So it was purchased with, amongst other sources, funds from the Commonwealth Government ( The Examiner, May 11th 2103 )
Therefore I helped pay for it with my taxes, and I'm being told I have to pay yet again to walk through it. Dont think I will be.

Paul.

But you have to pay a Parks Pass fee to enter NPs, which are all crown land, the facilities wherein being maintained with tax money. What's the difference?

[Paul]

NNW - I have not been talking about entering a National Park, and I dont have to pay to enter other Crown Land .

Looking on LIST, it clearly shows that the Title to the land at Circular Marsh ( ex Pollin Land with the underground Bunker ) DOES NOT include a road reserve running right through those 2 titles to the Pine River. Therefore it is my understanding that any person can walk that road reserve without having to pay any fee, or to be told to remove oneself from that location.
Understanding that the actual road reserve may not be marked on the ground, who could argue with you as to wether you are or are not actually located on it or not.
Anyone who can read a map very well and navigate very well would know, when passing through that land, that they were reasonably following that road reserve.

So, my understanding is that any person can travel Roscarborough Rd all the way to Pine River without having to pay any fee to any person or organisation.

I wanted to upload a screen shot showing the road reserve through this land, but being rather computer illiterate, I was unable to do so.

Paul.

[Lophophaps]

Paying $30 for 30 days or similar for a Parks Pass is one matter. Paying $25 for one weekend with no facilities is too much. The precise legal basis needs to be determined. An alleged offence would be a civil matter and unlikely to proceed to court.

[slparker]

Paying $30 for 30 days or similar for a Parks Pass is one matter. Paying $25 for one weekend with no facilities is too much.

* Here’s a tip, drive past and don’t camp there.

The precise legal basis needs to be determined.

*No it doesn’t.it is freehold land. Someone has legal title for the land. It is not leased, not borrowed it is owned.
It has never been crown land in anyone currently living's lifetime. It is less 'locked up' than it ever has been.

An alleged offence would be a civil matter and unlikely to proceed to court.

* Yes, the tort of trespass.and it would make you a prick to camp on someone's land without the good grace to seek permission.

Just like if I camped on your front yard because it aggrieved me that you owned it and I didn’t.

What on earth makes you think that it’s ok to camp uninvited and unannounced on land owned by someone else?

[Lophophaps]

"Freehold: Outright ownership of the property and land on which it stands. A freehold estate in land (as opposed to a leasehold) is where the owner of the land has no time limit to his period of ownership. Lease lengths vary and most common are 99, 125 (in the case of ex local authority) 500 and 999."

Torts cases and commentary, Lunz and Hambly, (1995)
12.2.1 "Trespass to land is committed by directly and intentionally (or, it would seem, negligently) entering or remaining upon, or causing some object to come into contact with, land in possession of another, without the consent of the person in possession or other legal justification or excuse."

If the border of the land is not defined, has no signs stating that this is private property or the like, and has the same character as the surrounding crown land, then it is hard to see how an action for trespass would succeed unless the alleged trespasser refused to leave. Lack of intent is a defence.

The main practical point for bushwalkers is using the road as access. I said that the precise legal basis needs to be determined, and this is still my view.

What on earth makes you think that it’s ok to camp uninvited and unannounced on land owned by someone else?

I did not say that and am not suggesting camping on the land. My theme has been to find the legal basis, and that has been done to a certain extent. The land is freehold and the road is not. The next step is to see if there is any legal basis for charging people to drive on the road and if access is permitted.

The scan of the Ina 1:50,000 map, 1988 edition, is illuminating, if faded. Note the red circled symbols on the Gowan Brae road and the river. These mean that the tenure on both sides of the road and river is the same. If it was a private road the symbols would not be needed. The next symbol is is about 3 kilometres off the map on the road with the red arrow. There are a number of fine black lines (blue circles) that seem to delineate tenure. Each block in the fine lines has a number, blue circled, also indicative. The thick black lines are the edge of State Forest (red cross) and the Central Plateau Protected Area (off the scan to the west).

It thus seems to me that this map shows State Forest, Central Plateau Protected Area and land that is neither. If so the latter could broadly be understood to be private land of some sort, with borders shown by the thin black lines and numbered.

Looking on LIST, it clearly shows that the Title to the land at Circular Marsh ( ex Pollin Land with the underground Bunker) DOES NOT include a road reserve running right through those 2 titles to the Pine River. Therefore it is my understanding that any person can walk that road reserve without having to pay any fee, or to be told to remove oneself from that location.

If this is correct - and it seems to be the case - then there appears to be no legal basis for charging to use the road for through traffic. This is what was used to avoid paying for through XC skiing at resorts. Nobody has denied what Paul has said.

Bushwalkers are not the only ones seeking access.
http://4wdtasmania.org/wordpress/12th-m ... sh-access/
"4WD Tasmania will be making a representation to the Aboriginal Land Council in an endeavour to secure access from Gowenbrae to the Bomb Shelter."
Can someone please cite a map and grid reference for the bomb shelter? Thanks.

Providing it has minimal impact, it seems to me that the Indigenous Land Corporation and Tasmanian Land Conservancy should allow free access on the road. It is probable that only people who have a connection with nature will want to drive on the road. If the number of visitors and/or their conduct is such that there are problems then access should be reviewed.

[Paul]

This could be an access option to get to Lake Malbena.

Roscarborough Road, from Marlborough Road, passes THROUGH the land that is now owned by the Aboriginal Land Council
( ALC ). It was previously owned by Mr Pallin who built the Nuclear Bunker upon it.

If I am successful uploading, this message will have an attachment, clearly showing that the Title to the ALC land, DOES NOT INCLUDE THE ROAD RESERVE, which passes right throught thier land, going all the way to the Pine River.

I have highlighted the ALC land ( ex Mr Pallin with the nuclear bunker ) in blue.

So I believe everyone has the right to walk/mountain bike the road reserve all the way to the Pine River, without any organisation having any authority to prohibit access via the road reserve, or authority to order any person off the road reserve, or authority to request any payment for using the road reserve.

Once to the Pine River, then follow it upstream, passing by Lake Naomi, then Lake Olive, then Lake Nugenta, then finally Lake Malbena.

The Gowan Brea Road option of access to Lake Malbena, is problematic, as it is only a public road for a certain distance, after that it IS INCLUDED as part of the ALC title.

Another option might be to walk from Clarence Lagoon ?

( All the brown shaded land is owned by the ALC. )

Cheers,
Paul.

[Paul]

Lophophaps, you asked for grid reference to the Pallin Nuclear Bunker.

It is GDA 94, 456710 / 5350599. The Road Reserve does not give access to it.

Cheers,
Paul.