Getting Started - Sleep System and Pack Volume for NSW

[BigBenny]

Hello,

I've gotten into backpack camping with a hammock, and I'm slowly acquiring more gear and experience. I live in Sydney and plan to do hikes and camping anywhere I get the opportunity, but due to locality most will be within the Sydney and Central Coast area.

My main questions are:
- is a 45L backpack plenty big or small for camping - for 1,2,3 night trips in NSW (3-4 seasons)?
- Is a 20'F (-6'C) top quilt warm enough for 3 seasons NSW (barring Charlotte Pass)?

Places/Trails I want to hike and camp:
- Great North Walk
- Six Foot Track
- Bicentennial National Trail (section hike to start with, ultimate goal is through hike it).

I plan to start with 3 seasons, and move to winter if I'm confident I have the shelter, insulation, and knowledge/experience that it will be safe. I would like to camp in the snow.

The main items I have thus far are:
- High Sierra Tangent 45L backpack
- Warbonnet Mountain Fly Tarp
- Warbonnet BlackBird XLC Hammock
- Warbonnet Wooki 0'F (-17'C) Under Quilt
- BlackWolf Micron 125 +3'C Sleeping bag (using as a top quilt)
- Kathmandu Gortex Rain Jacket

What I plan to get/upgrade soon:
1. Loco Libre Gear Ghost Pepper Operator 20'F (-6'C) top quilt

What I plan to get/upgrade later:
2. Zpacks Arc Haul backpack (maybe the Zip version, maybe not)

What I plan to get/upgrade eventually:
3. Hammock Gear Dyneema Palace Tarp or Simple Light Designs Winter Haven tarp (4-season winter tarp)

Currently my biggest problem is fitting all the gear in the Tangent 45L backpack. I'm not sure if 45L is considers more than enough or is small? It seems plenty big for a weekend trip, but it quickly becomes full once I start to pack it.

I am stuffing the quilt and sleeping bag (no stuff sack) in a dry bag in the main compartment, it becomes a tight squeeze with all the gear. I want to upgrade my backpack, but I am thinking better to spend my money else where first and learn to pack smarter, as its probably my fault and not my backpack. I am thinking, because I don't have a lot of real experience, I'm probably taking too many things or bad versions of them etc. Is 45L small?

I think my next purchase to replace the sleeping bag with a down top quilt will save a lot of pack volume.

So far I am wearing or packing a normal jumper (hoody), and its not exactly compact, eventually I plan to upgrade this to a puffy. I also realised the Kathmandu Goretex rainjacket I got doesn't pack that small either.

I am tempted to upgrade to the Zpacks Arc Haul, from the research I've done its what I want, and what works for others. Its larger volume and the shape seems better (opening is bigger). I haven't decided if I want the zip version, which has the benefit of being able to take stuff out and put stuff back in easier, but I like the idea of the big mesh pocket better for stuffing wet tarps, and other items to dry, rather than the solid zip compartment. I wish I could get the zipper and the big mesh pocket.

Perhaps I went overkill with the down 0'F (-17'C) under quilt. When I bought it, I didn't want to have to buy several quilts, I wanted one that could do it all, and wanted one that I could use in the snow. I could get a cooler under quilt, and perhaps a 3/4 under quilt to save volume. This may make summer camping easier, but winter camping I'll still have to take the appropriate underquilt and need a large volume.

Because of my ultimate goal to through hiking Bicentennial National Park, I prefer versatile gear that will work in different seasons or climates, e.g. using a summer top quilt in summer, and stacking the summer quilt with another for winter, over change a lot of gear out for items specific to seasons and climates. I'm also hoping it means I'll acquire a smaller collection of gear, and maybe not spend as much in total if my choices are wise.

Do you think the 20'F (-6'C) top quilt is going to be enough for a wide range of places and at least 3 seasons? Or will I need a warmer quilt?

Should I upgrade the backpack sooner rather than later? Could it be part of my problem or is it just me?

[wildwanderer]

Great to hear your making a start.

A few comments.

- as your having space issues consider compression stuff sacks for your sleep system. Combined with a waterproof pack liner means you wont need the heavy and bulky dry acks unless your planning serious river crossings.

- most of the bicentennial trail is a fire trail. As is the 6 foot track. Most bushwalkers find fire trails long hot and boring. Great north walk is a better option for your intial adventures in overnight bushwalking.

- plenty of people use 45l packs for trips of 1-4 nights. It all depends on your gear list. How much your taking and how compact it is. (And the conditions your expecting)

- is your pack 45 L main compartment? Or does this litre measurement include stretch front/side pockets as well? If it includes the pockets then more compact gear may be needed. Again depending on the type/length of walk

- Im not familiar with underquilts ( do u need them warmer?) however a -17c quilt (if thats comfort temp rating) seems overkill and heavy/bulky for Australian conditions. A -8c quilt will serve you well for autumn,winter and spring in Australia even above the tree line. Boost with a down jacket if needed.

Here are some good threads with gear list discussions
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24161

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=14231

If you're in Sydney why not consider walking with a club? 'Coast and mountain walkers' and 'Sydney bushwalkers' specialise in overnight walking and beyond.

[clarence]

I think 45L is at the small end of the range for overnight trips.

I can pack for 3 nights gear into a 40L pack, but find most people will use a 60L or larger pack for a hike of 2 to 4 days.

Without food and water, if your total packed weight including the pack is in the 9kg - 14kg zone (for a 3 day walk), you are in the ballpark.

For most 3 season walking in NSW (Snowy Mountians excluded) a sleeping bag with 550 to 700 grams of down is going to be close to the mark (depending on how warm you sleep).

When I use my hammock, I put a thermarest underneath. It is a bit fiddly, but it works.

Put your sleeping bag in a dedicated stuff sac- it packs better and keeps it dry and protected. It will end up taking up much less space.

Clarence

[wildwanderer]

Without food and water, if your total packed weight including the pack is in the 9kg - 14kg zone (for a 3 day walk), you are in the ballpark.

Clarence

Perhaps some people but an increasing number of people are reducing their weight and pack size. I would say the majority of non casual walkers in NSW Ive encountered/walked with are below the 9 kg base weight for 3 days.

I wouldnt consider myself ultra lightweight and for a 3 day walk Im 6.6 kg (without food water). Thats with PLB, full gas canistar, FA kit, wet weather gear, a 620 gram down jacket and even a chair. Above the tree line Im aprox 7kg base weight.

[rcaffin]

Some of your gear is rather bulky, and that is your main problem. GoreTex jackets ... sigh.
Remember the UL credo: 'don't pack your fears'.

- Great North Walk
Rather fun

- Six Foot Track
Very easy, but good exercise. The faster runners do it in under 3.5 hrs.

- Bicentennial National Trail
BORING! It's a horse-riding Fire Trail.

You could work up the the Hume & Hovel, and then to the AAWT, if still interested.

Cheers
Roger

[Neo]

Hey Big Benny
Sounds like you are sorted for the proposed areas! A 45l backpack should be fine for solo to 3 days without going super expensive/minimal.
Get ou ther and enjoy you current gear, then figure out later what you don't need or want to upgrade.

[Neo]

Without food and water, if your total packed weight including the pack is in the 9kg - 14kg zone (for a 3 day walk), you are in the ballpark.

Clarence

Perhaps some people but an increasing number of people are reducing their weight and pack size. I would say the majority of non casual walkers in NSW Ive encountered/walked with are below the 9 kg base weight for 3 days.

I wouldnt consider myself ultra lightweight and for a 3 day walk Im 6.6 kg (without food water). Thats with PLB, full gas canistar, FA kit, wet weather gear, a 620 gram down jacket and even a chair. Above the tree line Im aprox 7kg base weight.

Well I'm 9 to 10kg base and smaller/lighter than all but one old hand I've been out with. And I have numerous handy bits (^1kg)

[BigBenny]

Great to hear your making a start.
- as your having space issues consider compression stuff sacks for your sleep system. Combined with a waterproof pack liner means you wont need the heavy and bulky dry acks unless your planning serious river crossings.

I'm using a Sea to Summit 65L eVac Dry Bag as a pack liner. I'm forgoing individual stuff sacks for my sleeping bag and under quilt, as I'm following the idea that my back pack pack with compression straps is one big compression stuff sack and that way the quilt and sleeping bag can help fill the voids rather than have the sphere packing problem. I put my underquilt and sleeping bag in first and then jam more and more stuff on top, squishing it down.

Great to hear your making a start.
- most of the bicentennial trail is a fire trail. As is the 6 foot track. Most bushwalkers find fire trails long hot and boring. Great north walk is a better option for your intial adventures in overnight bushwalking.


- plenty of people use 45l packs for trips of 1-4 nights. It all depends on your gear list. How much your taking and how compact it is. (And the conditions your expecting)

Thanks for the tips, Great North walk is closer to where I live so it's where I've been doing day walks thus far, and will probably do more over night trips there.

- is your pack 45 L main compartment? Or does this litre measurement include stretch front/side pockets as well? If it includes the pockets then more compact gear may be needed. Again depending on the type/length of walk

I tried to research this and couldn't find an answer. Since my dry bag will hold water, I place the dry bag as a liner in the back packs main compartment and started filling it with water, measuring how much I put it, it was about 34L when I could still close the main compartment without using the extra cinch that has a bit more material (what do you call these things? and what is their real purpose?). I didn't measure it, but I'm guessing the extra cinch would give another 2-4L, and the brain another 6 odd liters . The front mesh pocket and side pockets aren't that big I'm guessing you could say another 1L each to make 3 more liters.

- Im not familiar with underquilts ( do u need them warmer?) however a -17c quilt (if thats comfort temp rating) seems overkill and heavy/bulky for Australian conditions. A -8c quilt will serve you well for autumn,winter and spring in Australia even above the tree line. Boost with a down jacket if needed.

Under quilts are insulation that hangs under your hammock. I believe the 0'F (-17'C) is comfort, its USA brand where they don't follow a standard. Being overkill doesn't over heat you as its underneath you, like when you sleep in a real bed. If the outside temperature isn't in that vacinity it is overkill, and I could take a cooler/lighter underquilt, which is what I was thinking I may have to end up doing if the bulk of my gear is too big a problem. However, since I do want to do hammock camping in the snow, I will need to reduce bulk and keep the underquilt or get a bigger pack.

Here are some good threads with gear list discussions
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24161

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=14231

If you're in Sydney why not consider walking with a club? 'Coast and mountain walkers' and 'Sydney bushwalkers' specialise in overnight walking and beyond.

Thanks for the links. I have not yet joined a club, but I think its time I do.

[BigBenny]

I think 45L is at the small end of the range for overnight trips.

I can pack for 3 nights gear into a 40L pack, but find most people will use a 60L or larger pack for a hike of 2 to 4 days.

Thanks, this is good to know. I think the total volume of my current pack is around 45L, the main compartment being around 34-38L. I think that's part of the reason I'm having a tight squeeze, and part just packing too many things or having bulky versions of items.

Without food and water, if your total packed weight including the pack is in the 9kg - 14kg zone (for a 3 day walk), you are in the ballpark.

When my pack is dry, I'll repack it and weigh it. I have in the past but can't remember what it was. I have a few different items now anyway. I probably make a lighterpack.com listing.

For most 3 season walking in NSW (Snowy Mountians excluded) a sleeping bag with 550 to 700 grams of down is going to be close to the mark (depending on how warm you sleep).

Hmm. the Loco Libre Gear 20'F (-6'C) top quilt I was looking at getting has about 340g of 900 fill power down. When you are talking 550 to 700 grams, what fill power down would that be - does it include 900 FP? What sort of comfort temperature quilt (or sleeping bag) would that be?

When I use my hammock, I put a thermarest underneath. It is a bit fiddly, but it works.

Yep that works, I got a double-layer hammock to make it easier, the pad won't move around as much, but I also got an underquilt which should pack to a smaller volume for given level of warmth and I think is more comfortable. UQs aren't that useful if for some reason you need to sleep on the ground though.

Put your sleeping bag in a dedicated stuff sac- it packs better and keeps it dry and protected. It will end up taking up much less space.

Clarence

Hmm, I had seen videos and stuff where they recommend ditching individual stuff sacs, using a pack liner, and the back pack with compression straps. The idea being that the sleeping bag or quilts can conform to the voids in the bag, fill all the nooks and crannies, that when in a stuff sack it wouldn't be able to do as well. The idea is that jamming things in will compress the bags/quilts, and then the backpack's compression straps can compress it all down some more to you're happy. The pack liner should keep them dry.

I'll try using individual stuff sacks and see how I go.

[BigBenny]

Thanks for the info wildwalker.

Rodger, thanks for you tips too.

Some of your gear is rather bulky, and that is your main problem. GoreTex jackets ... sigh.
Remember the UL credo: 'don't pack your fears'.

I only realised how bulky it was the other day. I do like the jacket, but considering my bulk problems, perhaps it wasn't the best option.

- Great North Walk
Rather fun

- Six Foot Track
Very easy, but good exercise. The faster runners do it in under 3.5 hrs.

- Bicentennial National Trail
BORING! It's a horse-riding Fire Trail.

You could work up the the Hume & Hovel, and then to the AAWT, if still interested.

Cheers
Roger

Thanks for the info, wildwanderer also mentioned most walkers find them boring. I hadn't figured that. Hume & Hovel and AAWT look like great tracks to make my goals.

[wildwanderer]

@bigbenny

Using your pack as the compression sack sounds good in theory but in practice it doesnt work. You cant get the sleeping bag or any down items into a smaller space just by stuffing because the down fills with air again (often seconds after you have stuffed it). Even if you do manage a tight stuffing you will find it very frustrating to put things back in the pack while out on the trail as the down will uncompress again and your stuff wont go back in the pack without a fight. For maximum space reduction and ease of use you need a compression sack for your quilt/sleeping bag.

A regular stuff sack also works but you cant get it as compressed. (A compression sack will often reduce the size by 50-65% compared to a regular stuff sack)

[Zapruda]

@bigbenny

Using your pack as the compression sack sounds good in theory but in practice it doesnt work. You cant get the sleeping bag or any down items into a smaller space just by stuffing because the down fills with air again (often seconds after you have stuffed it). Even if you do manage a tight stuffing you will find it very frustrating to put things back in the pack while out on the trail as the down will uncompress again and your stuff wont go back in the pack without a fight. For maximum space reduction and ease of use you need a compression sack for your quilt/sleeping bag.

A regular stuff sack also works but you cant get it as compressed. (A compression sack will often reduce the size by 50-65% compared to a regular stuff sack)

I disagree. I did the compression sack things for years and was left with tonnes of empty space that couldn’t be filled because of the brick like nature of them. For the past few years I just pack everything in one giant dry bag and put heavy items like food on top and it squashes down the sleeping bag and clothes and fills in the space.

[Mark F]

I agree with Zapruda. I found that when I changed from lots of individual stuff sacks to a good pack liner with sleeping gear (bag/quilt, mat, thermals), camp clothing (down jacket socks beanie etc) and headlamp in the bottom sans stuff sacks and then the rest on top definitely minimised the pack volume. The tent usually goes in at this point but if it is wet I carry it in the top of the pack on top of the closed pack liner. Now three stuff sacks - cooking gear (for cleanliness), food bag for breakfasts and dinners, an extra bag for lunches and snacks that goes on top, intermingled with any clothing etc that may be needed during the day. First aid, knife, tent pegs, spot etc go in the top pocket or a small stuff sack securely attached to the pack and in a side pocket.

[wildwanderer]

Interesting. I have tried and I found I couldn't get everything stuffed down enough. However if it works for others maybe I should give it another go.

Though I do like the extra water protection of having the stuff sacks.

[Zapruda]

Definitely give it a try.

I use a 20L S2S Sil dry bag and it hasn’t let any water in at all. Although, I do use DCF packs which do a pretty decent job of shedding water.

[Lamont]

I have recently gone back to (trialling) putting my quilt/bag into a UL drybag at the bottom in a big Water proof bag. Maybe this a hybrid ?
Only for ease of packing. I just find it quicker-weird I know-one more step, but it works for now. Quite a large stuff sack so my bag/quilt is close to (same as) the bottom dimensions of the rucksack-exactly 10 rolls in an 8L dry bag gives me the right size and shape in the bottom of the 30L body of the rucksack.
So far I am managing to avoid the 'bricking' Zapruda .
! then put in all the other 'must stay dry' stuff on top and fill in all the holes gaps. I can get exactly the shape I want doing this and quickly.
When I seal up the big bag I have about half the space left in the body of the rucksack and it's nicely shaped for walking.
I have for a while been doing what Zapruda and Mark refer to-all the stuff that must be dry in to one bag. Just at the moment however trialling this way. I find this quicker and easier for some reason.
Then put food, shelter above that-outside the dry bag. I imagine I'll go back to this (Zapruda and Marks method) especially when no rain is forecast and in milder weather and maybe permanently-just enjoying trialling things at the moment. Weight cost is about 35 grams.
And best of all I am getting the shape I want in my rucksack for hipbeltless use and it's carrying really well. I would imagine this would work for any frameless set up hip belt or not?
Perhaps something to think on Benny, or disregard.
Good luck with the hammocking, don't know how temps work there.

[clarence]

For most 3 season walking in NSW (Snowy Mountians excluded) a sleeping bag with 550 to 700 grams of down is going to be close to the mark (depending on how warm you sleep).

Hmm. the Loco Libre Gear 20'F (-6'C) top quilt I was looking at getting has about 340g of 900 fill power down. When you are talking 550 to 700 grams, what fill power down would that be - does it include 900 FP? What sort of comfort temperature quilt (or sleeping bag) would that be?

When I use my hammock, I put a thermarest underneath. It is a bit fiddly, but it works.

Yep that works, I got a double-layer hammock to make it easier, the pad won't move around as much, but I also got an underquilt which should pack to a smaller volume for given level of warmth and I think is more comfortable. UQs aren't that useful if for some reason you need to sleep on the ground though.

Put your sleeping bag in a dedicated stuff sac- it packs better and keeps it dry and protected. It will end up taking up much less space.

Clarence

Hmm, I had seen videos and stuff where they recommend ditching individual stuff sacs, using a pack liner, and the back pack with compression straps. The idea being that the sleeping bag or quilts can conform to the voids in the bag, fill all the nooks and crannies, that when in a stuff sack it wouldn't be able to do as well. The idea is that jamming things in will compress the bags/quilts, and then the backpack's compression straps can compress it all down some more to you're happy. The pack liner should keep them dry.

When I say 550-700g I mean a good quality down by a reputable high end manufacturer like one planet or mont (I haven't bought a sleeping bag for years, so i am not familiar with FP). A lot of sleeping bags used to be 55% top, 45% base- so you'd expect a 700g bag to have a bit over 300g of down in the base

A double layer hammock would help keeping the mat in place. The blackbird hammock looks cool. I use my old thermarest because I don't want to get into the whole quilt thing, and it works, and good if you end up on the ground.

Everyone I know does the stuffsack thing with their sleeping bag (even the hardcore ultra lighters)- but there are other ways I suppose. I stuff all my sleeping clothes around the sleeping bag stuff sack to fill in the voids and make the pack base solid.

Clarence

[Ms_Mudd]

It seems a bit of the old 'fold or scrunch' preference debate.

I have a big dead dog liner as a pack liner. Into that, I put individual dry sacks (in different colours) for different gear. Maybe I should get brave and just do the dead dog bag? I am hopeless at losing stuff, so rely a bit (too much lol) on my coloured dry sacks and knowing exactly what should be in them to keep me from being a scatter brain and being without xy or z as I have misplaced it.

[BigBenny]

I think both ways have merit. Having different coloured stuff sacks and knowing what goes in each sounds like a good way to be organised and to be able to dig out what you want and not lose things. If you don't have issues with bulk maybe stick with it, but always good to experiment too, otherwise you'll never know if there's better ways.

Also to clarify something I said earlier, my goretex jacket is a hardshell, so its not super bulky, but it is a rather large size so and still bulkier than I expected. That said it does squish a bit.

Hopefully, the Loco Libre Gear top quilt will be coming soon, I'm excited to see how it packs and performs.

[BigBenny]

I got my Loco Libre top quilt and I'm really happy with it.
I have started gone back to using individual stuff sacks for my under quilt, and top quilt. I've always used the double-ended stuff-sack (bishop bag) for the hammock. I put the most things inside my sea-to-summit eVac drybag I'm using as a liner. Quilts first.
I also have some soft shackles and some small carabiners attached to my pack. I hand my pack to a tree or similar and then as I setup I can take stuff sacks out of the pack and hang them off the pack using the carabiners or soft-shackles. This way I don't need to put anything on the ground where it might get wet and/or dirty and I might forget it.

[ChrisJHC]

Hey, Benny, I also have a WBBB XLC but I have the 20F Wooki. I’ve matched that with a 20F top quilt from Enlightened Equipment (via Massdrop). I have found that ensemble comfortable down to -5C.

I would personally find a 45L pack too small. Just remember that, just because you have a larger pack, you don’t have to fill it! I use a 70L.

As for packing, I use the supplied stuff sacks for my hammock and Underquilt which means they end up small and solid. They go in the bottom compartment of my pack. I have a larger stuff sack for my Topquilt which ends up soft and squishy. I then pack that also in the bottom compartment, filling in all the air gaps.