Knees'n'Ankles

[Macca81]

the joys of being young...



i have this to look forward to when im older how much older, im not sure yet...

[sirius Tas]

Hi SS,
Have had very dodgy knees for decades as a result of not only continuous daily walking at work...but mainly due to extensive road running 20 to 30 years ago...where it would be common to run up to 100kms per week...which was totally excessive and definitely not required to maintain that type of fitness. I found that it was the constant running down hill which caused the most trouble.
In more recent times the dodgy knee packed up completely to the stage that I physically couldn't walk...just a short hobble around the house...almost impossible to drive even a short distance. Doc put me on Moxicam initially to relieve the pain and swelling...then once I gained my mobility back after a couple of weeks...at his suggestion went onto Glucosamine/chondroitin 1500mg...one per day. I did ask about fish oils.....basically he said that there was no proven benefit with regards to joint wear...so have never taken it.
Have been on the Glucosamine for over 2 yrs and have virtually eliminated all knee soreness...may get a slight twinge after a very long walk. As others have said...it's the downhill walking that does the damage...so taking it slower....and for me..I tend to sidle down really steep stuff which helps enormously. I do use a single walking pole which I've also found pretty useful.
To my knowledge I haven't had any side effects...so far any way...hope this helps....Cheers sirius.

[Ent]

Um?

Two knee operations and sensible recovery process and life is looking promising. After a long search found Black Diamond walking poles actually worked and were strong enough to handle the unexpected loads from slips etc. The recent trip into Pelion via the Arm River Track and the trek up to Ossa resulted in no knee soreness. Walking with poles is a real challenge and best suited to more open tracks. Do not be afraid to leave them behind when the track narrows or become more a scramble.

If you are more extreme off track walker then poles not so good and actually can be more dangerous I have found. Sort of love hate relationship. On open tracks love them but on closed in tracks hate them.

Cheers Brett

[Julafreak]

Um? Two knee operations and sensible recovery process and life is looking promising.

You had knee operation?? Ah.. no wonder.. but hey you still made it to the top of Mt Ossa!!

[Ent]

Um? Two knee operations and sensible recovery process and life is looking promising.

You had knee operation?? Ah.. no wonder.. but hey you still made it to the top of Mt Ossa!!

I work on the principle though while not being as young as I once was I am not as old as I am going to be so climb every mountain while you still can

Cheers Brett

PS and then you headed off down the OT track to be collected at Lake St Clair to head straight to Frenchmans Cap. Um? Youth, something to be fully utilised.

[Rod]

One more advocate for walking poles.
Can't overstate the benefits in my view...
Most important point is to persist with them -learning to use them well is a skill that requires practice .
I don't think that you appreciate the benefits fully until you have persisted with them for several walks-like others I found them a little annoying initially but it improves each time.
Just my humble opinion!
Rod

[Liamy77]

A recent topic on weight got me contemplating body mass index and all that bollocks...
My problem is that after long or unduly rough or 'crazy' walks I have suffered sore knees and ankles.

A couple of things I feel may be contributing to this is;
a) new boots - Scarpa Trek Pro's - stiff but pretty tough, the old Garmont's 'felt' better
b) fatigue to said joints through age and/or bodily abuse

So..........without going into too much detail as people are very different in many ways(physically)
What do you do to keep these essential regions healthy - I'm interested in any form of medicine herbal or traditional.
What has worked for you, what have you heard works, and why?

P.S. I am 36 - 5'10" - 80kg, have worked and played hard all my life

Cheers, sbs

Glucosamine is a good supplement for joint issues - it is the main "building block" for the cartiledge in joints and spine and acts as a sort of cushion or lubricant for the bone surfaces- otherwise just condition training and going at your pace. Pain /inflamation meds will only relieve the symptoms rather than prevent the pain in the first place - but they still have their place if your feeling it.. Nurofen makes a good heat type gel that i use from time to time ( a bit like dencorub) I havnt used them but i have heard that menthol patches can be good for muscle related pain - probably not so much use for the joints though.
alternating heat and cold packs can be a relief too - you can improvise with water bottles or wet material on the trail. about 5 minutes on then swap.. the theory behind this is both to reduce inflammation while still promoting circulation and therefore nutrient supply to the area.

[north-north-west]

We have a thread on glucosamine/chondroitin somewhere.
Which reminds me - time for the evening dose . . . back in a sec.

[Erica]

I know its been said numerous times, but just wanted to add that I've found poles incredibly useful. At 21 I'm no where near old, but have been working on-and-off for Cradle Huts over the past four summers. During my 2nd season I did 7 or so Overland Track trips in about 2 months, and bought poles partway through that period. I found that I wasn't becoming anywhere near as sore in my knees after buying (and using...) the poles, especially after taxing days with big ups and downs (like the first day up Marions, or when taking a pack up Ossa) I hope you all find something that works for you, and hopefully its something I wont have to think about too seriously for many years.

(Also, poles come in handy when having to walk out of places on a sprained ankle, fun times)

[johnw]

After much discomfort and physio in the past month or two, it seems I may have a meniscal tear in my left knee. An aggravation of a long standing injury. I'm arranging to see a specialist and getting an MRI done but it looks like surgery is probable . I'm still bushwalking, running and cycling at present, but with difficulty/pain at times.

[johnw]

After much discomfort and physio in the past month or two, it seems I may have a meniscal tear in my left knee. An aggravation of a long standing injury. I'm arranging to see a specialist and getting an MRI done but it looks like surgery is probable . I'm still bushwalking, running and cycling at present, but with difficulty/pain at times.

Finally got to see the orthopaedic surgeon on Friday, who has referred me for an MRI. He supported the physio's opinion that it's likely a torn meniscus but need to wait for the MRI results, once I get it done.

[Ent]

After much discomfort and physio in the past month or two, it seems I may have a meniscal tear in my left knee. An aggravation of a long standing injury. I'm arranging to see a specialist and getting an MRI done but it looks like surgery is probable . I'm still bushwalking, running and cycling at present, but with difficulty/pain at times.

Finally got to see the orthopaedic surgeon on Friday, who has referred me for an MRI. He supported the physio's opinion that it's likely a torn meniscus but need to wait for the MRI results, once I get it done.

Best of luck John. I have had both knees done and I am suffering no ill effects though I no longer run down hills as that is the worst thing for knees. In fact that is what caused the initial problem with a bit breaking off the knee cap going through the knee joint. Annoying is you can run and experience no pain but next day get up from a chair and life becomes one of pain until you warm up.

Cheers Brett

[johnw]

Best of luck John. I have had both knees done and I am suffering no ill effects though I no longer run down hills as that is the worst thing for knees. In fact that is what caused the initial problem with a bit breaking off the knee cap going through the knee joint. Annoying is you can run and experience no pain but next day get up from a chair and life becomes one of pain until you warm up.

Thanks Brett. This looks like it will take a while to get sorted out. I booked the MRI yesterday but can't get in until August 19 (bulk billed, so long waiting list). I can relate to your comments, I feel good running once warmed up after several Kms. As you said it's the next day you feel the pain. I'm alternating between running and cycling at present which seems to help with strengthening the muscles around the knee. Current advice is to keep doing what I do, but plenty of stretching and monitor the condition, which suits me as I'd rather wear out than rust out. Definitely trying to minimise the downhills though.

[myrtlegirl]

Recent research suggests that if you have good Vitamin D levels, you can delay having knee replacements for an average of nearly 15 years. Vit D can come from the diet (not usually a great deal this way though), another way is through sun exposure. Getting enough Vit D in Tas in winter isn't easy, sometimes in summer too. It's very worthwhile getting your Vit D level tested at the end of winter, and if it's low a supplement would help. See http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE54S4LJ20090529

I tried walking poles for the first time recently - a revelation, they are the bees knees. YouTube has videos on the correct way to use them. Don't take it as gospel (some videos make the user look a right prat) but they can give you the principles of why they are best used in certain ways - hold back at 45 deg angle, use opposing pole and foot, what height to set them at, how to use the strap, etc. I use 1 pole and place it down every 3 steps. It took a while of concentrating to get a good technique, and I'm so glad I did. I come home from walks with far fewer bruises as I fall a lot less, and my knees aren't as swollen. I don't walk hunched (thanks to my Aarn pack for this also), and my pole hand is less swollen at the end of the day. On a Larapinta trip we used them to hold up a hoochie, and there was a time when I thought we may have to use them as dingo-whacking poles (growling dingo at Redbank Gorge). On a Lake Oberon trip we used them as mouse scarers.
On another note, I have heard a tale of a pole failing at a critical moment and a knee being severely damaged, so get good poles, and learn how to set them up and use them so that you don't wear out fittings.

[Ent]

Hi

I agree that walking poles (two) are brilliant at saving the knees. The walk down from Dixon Kingdom is renown for being hard on knees but my poles made light work of it. However, it took me a long time to get the hang of them and still find them annoying in closed in tracks. As for the quality question I fully support the buying of decent poles. My Black Diamond ones can be trusted to take my weight while others are dangerous especially if you are tall and solid build.

Cheers Brett

[johnw]

Best of luck John. I have had both knees done and I am suffering no ill effects though I no longer run down hills as that is the worst thing for knees. In fact that is what caused the initial problem with a bit breaking off the knee cap going through the knee joint. Annoying is you can run and experience no pain but next day get up from a chair and life becomes one of pain until you warm up.

Thanks Brett. This looks like it will take a while to get sorted out. I booked the MRI yesterday but can't get in until August 19 (bulk billed, so long waiting list). I can relate to your comments, I feel good running once warmed up after several Kms. As you said it's the next day you feel the pain. I'm alternating between running and cycling at present which seems to help with strengthening the muscles around the knee. Current advice is to keep doing what I do, but plenty of stretching and monitor the condition, which suits me as I'd rather wear out than rust out. Definitely trying to minimise the downhills though.

I got sick of waiting for the bulk billed MRI, so forked out the non-rebatable $200 and had it done earlier. Results not great (as expected). Visited the surgeon last week and I have complex tearing of the lateral meniscus (cartilage), some swelling, fluid and arthritis. Other than that the knee is in great condition . Mostly wear and tear/age related, likely aggravated by some trauma earlier in the year. I've booked in for day surgery in 2 weeks time to have the tearing cleaned up (arthroscope/partial meniscectomy) which hopefuly should resolve the problem for now. Will be off work for 4 days and no running, deep squats etc for 2 weeks afterwards. Unfortunately I'll definitely require a knee replacement in around 10 years.

[stepbystep]

I got sick of waiting for the bulk billed MRI, so forked out the non-rebatable $200 and had it done earlier. Results not great (as expected). Visited the surgeon last week and I have complex tearing of the lateral meniscus (cartilage), some swelling, fluid and arthritis. Other than that the knee is in great condition . Mostly wear and tear/age related, likely aggravated by some trauma earlier in the year. I've booked in for day surgery in 2 weeks time to have the tearing cleaned up (arthroscope/partial meniscectomy) which hopefuly should resolve the problem for now. Will be off work for 4 days and no running, deep squats etc for 2 weeks afterwards. Unfortunately I'll definitely require a knee replacement in around 10 years.

Sorry to hear that John and hope the recovery goes well.
This is still a concern for me. I did a reasonably long walk the other day and at about the 6hr mark the pain kicked in, it seems far more severe in my left knee and my right is feeling stronger. I've lost a bit of weight and been on glucosamine for 3 months, now but think the jury is still out on whether hat is helping yet.
Can you describe the pain? Mine is quit a sharp pain on the outside of my left knee, came good within a day or two.

Recent research suggests that if you have good Vitamin D levels.....

Nice tip, I heard a discussion on this the other day, good for many things apparently - oily fish is one of the richest dietry methods apparently.

I rubbed emu oil on it afterwards, really good stuff, helped the knee and great on the muscles.

Cheers, Dan

[Ent]

Content removed by poster.

[johnw]

Can you describe the pain? Mine is quit a sharp pain on the outside of my left knee, came good within a day or two.

Dan, Mine is also in the same location but is mostly a dull ache with a lot of stiffness. I can no longer rotate the lower leg fully backwards until the heel meets the back of the thigh. I've been doing some physio exercises which rotate the joint, but I don't like doing them as it catches on the damaged cartilage on the way through which causes brief but sharp pain. And if I accidentally twist the knee laterally in any unusual or excessive movement then I really see stars . Knowing what I now know I'd suggest getting your knee looked at. Sometimes these types of injuries can come good just with physio, particularly if you're younger. I'm now 56 so no hope there for me .

Anyway best of luck with your recovery and with care I hope you get the same great results I got. The orthopaedic surgeon that did mine pointed out that most people get to quickly back into over using the joint and his advice was six weeks of sensible use followed by a delay in extreme use as long as you can handle been out of the action. This gives a chance for everything to smooth over. I followed his advice and all looks good.

Thanks Brett, I hope I can be that disciplined. I usually go stir crazy if my normal activities are disrupted for long. So it looks like I might have to learn to be more patient. Difficult when you're used to running, cycling or bushwalking 6 or 7 days a week . Still I'm looking forward to having the procedure so I can start the rehabilitation and hopefully get back to something approaching normality.

[johnw]

Back from day surgery a few hours ago, all seemed to go well. Now starts the recovery. I can hobble around, with a lot of stiffness and some pain. They want me walking and doing self-physio asap (ie from tomorrow) but building up walking distance etc gradually. No impact work or deep squats for minimum 2 weeks; rules out running and probably bushwalking for that period or longer. Probably no driving for a while either as my current vehicle is manual and it's the left knee (unless I can pinch my wife's auto). Hopefully back to work on Monday. Time for another painkiller .

[Liamy77]

best of luck!

i have this theory:
if i start walking on my hands at 40 yo then gravity will counteract itself and i will end up the buffest 80 yo in town......

[stepbystep]

Good luck with it John, hope you take advantage of the down time.

[johnw]

Thanks for the wishes guys. Back at work yesterday and seems to be progressing nicely. I can already walk several kms (on flattish surfaces), almost without limping. Just a bit stiff and sore still. Also don't like going down stairs or steep hills just yet (hurts). Keeping up the self-physio and ice. I'm hopeful of returning to some easy bushwalking the weekend after next. Running and maybe MTB riding might take longer.

[north-north-west]

Has anyone here ever had a shoulder reconstruction? I really need to look at getting it done, but am afraid of the amount of time I wouldn't be able to work, dive or walk.

[Liamy77]

shoulders can be tricky - mostly just muscle holdin them together... no personal experience to offer though sorry....
but apparently 2 panadol and a triple whisky greatly reduces your awareness of any medical condition...... won't fix it, but it will keep ya from worryin about it for a while!

[juju]

I have a 'ghost ' of a problem right knee. I'm fine with alternating ups and downs, but when it comes to long steep downs, say 6km of downhill without a break, (it's only happened four times in fourteen years). I go along fine until about four or five k and then wham - with about a three step warning - sharp crippling pain on picking up my leg and extending it forward. It only happens on those rare long steep downhills. Then it's walking backwards, sideways anything. It feels like a cramped muscle but disappears again on the flat and uphill. It's only happened four times in 14 years. Saw a physio - a real Sherlock Holmes who discovered the tightly strung muscle running from my hip to my knee. He's given me some stretches that I really can feel working down to my knee, so hopefully this will work.

[Cocksy_86]

Juju. ITB. Happened to a girl on the Kokoda track. Happened to my dad while training for Kokoda track. Happened to the team leader and he had to have an operation. I'm constantly running a tennis ball up the side of my leg so mine does spasm.

[north-north-west]

... won't fix it, but it will keep ya from worryin about it for a while!

An old boyfriend used to say the same about his treatment for virtually any illness - about which I probably can't be specific without getting modded.

[stepbystep]

Caught the end of a discussion on the radio about how to preserve knees if you bushwalk a lot, the physio said you should walk like you are tip-toeing
Couldn't help but think of this guy

2311723124_e2fa3063f7.jpg (30.91 KiB) Viewed 18524 times

Shhhhhh, I'm hunting weally nice views..........

[Liamy77]

... won't fix it, but it will keep ya from worryin about it for a while!

An old boyfriend used to say the same about his treatment for virtually any illness - about which I probably can't be specific without getting modded.

if he was thinkin what i'm now thinkin...... might swap the sore knees for worn out hips!? .... or both?
.... still he has its up side / a good point?

a little cryptic but as you say mods r around... and theres the family "G" rating to consider....