Tips for Snow Camping

[jose]

Some forum members are buying new gear with the intention of winter walking for the first time. It would be interesting to get ideas on how we can make make life easier when camping in different conditions. I'll start with a couple of my favourites and hopefully others may add more.

At temperatures below zero, if you use metho or gas for your cooker, take your fuel (along with your gas lighter)into your sleeping bag with you overnight, or at least for the last hour before you get up in the morning. They will then work much more efficiently.

If your boots are wet then leave them spread as wide open as possible before you go to sleep so if they freeze overnight then you can still get your feet into them to thaw them out in the morning. (I draw the line at taking my boots into the sleeping bag with me!)

I find Sealskins are good to wear on those freezing mornings to thaw boots out and, once they are warm, I thaw my frozen socks in a bit of heated water, wring them out and quickly put them warm on my feet into the thawed boots (taking my Sealskins off first as I think they are too expensive to wear walking!).

[zac150]

Couple of extra tips I have found great over the years,

- 2 or 3mm closed cell foam cut to the shape of your tents floor is a great insulating layer under your sleeping mat.

- Zip up your jacket and slide it over the foot of your sleeping bag at night. This protects your bag from condensation etc if you slide of your mat in the middle of the night and end up against the wall of your tent.

- deep heat is great for cold toes in the morning, especially in cold boots.

- Boil some water and pour it into a reliable drink bottle (such as Nalgene), put the bottle in a "clean" sock and slide it into your sleeping bag before you go to bed. Their is nothing like a hot water bottle to heat your bag. Also gives you a litre of water for the morning.

[Joel]

Don't eat yellow snow...

(Sorry, someone had to say it)

[jose]

Don't eat yellow snow...

Ha Ha!!

- Also take 2-3 times the amount of fuel that you would normally use because, if you need to melt snow for your water requirements, the time taken to melt snow to water is twice as long as the time to bring cold water to the boil.

- Don't forget to bring snow pegs with your tent.

- Stomp hard on the snow to be sure there are no air pockets under your intended tent site that may collapse on you later. A light snow shovel is very useful to level out your patch of snow for a tent site, or to dig out a snow cave.

- Build a snow wall for a wind protected cooking area OR dig snow out of your tent vestibule area to make a space deep enough to be able to sit in your tent and cook in the vestibule with your legs comfortably down at cooker level(instead of straight in front).

- Wear rubber gloves over your normal gloves to keep them dry and windproof. They are also handy when using your hands to smooth down the inside of a snow cave or dome to prevent drips.

[zac150]

Don't forget toilet paper,

[ninjapuppet]

Don't forget toilet paper,

is that a tip from personal experience?

[Son of a Beach]

Don't forget toilet paper,

On a snow trip? No need for TP when in the snow!

[zac150]

is that a tip from personal experience?

Yes, never assume!!!

On a snow trip? No need for TP when in the snow!

Yes it was on a snow trip, and trust me snow is no substitute for sorbent, it is a little more abrasive than you may think.

[Son of a Beach]

Did you read the linked topic?

I found the snow to be fine and in fact I now prefer it to TP when it's available. Yes, it's rough but I don't use sorbent anyhow. . It's certainly better for the environment.

[zac150]

Sorry son of beach i didn't realise you had added a link (newby).

Great link, maybe you could add a chapter or two to the book "how to *&%$#! in the woods"

[ninjapuppet]

I just came across this gear list for winter hiking from http://sectionhiker.com/winter-backpacking-on-a-budget/
Its for the US but i really wonder for Aussie conditions, eg the main range in winter, would an the following be neccessary?
- ice axe,
- shovel,
- goggles
- and TWO pairs of mountaineering gloves be neccesary ?
I'm currently reading up on some snowshoes or crampons or yowies....... I didnt even know what crampons were till recently!

Also, i have a pair of standard malaku. would i need to get the snowflake attachments? http://www.leki.com/trekking/trekkingAccessory.php?aID=5

ITEM...........................COST

Ice Axe.........................75
Snowshoes......................250
Crampons......................150
Liquid Fuel Stove.............80
Winter Sleeping Pad..........150
Winter Sleeping Bag...........400
Mountaineering Boots.........300
Expedition Pack............... 250
Avalanche Shovel..............50
Windproof Balaclava............40
2 pr Goggles......................120
2 pr Mountaineering Gloves..200
High Gaiters...................... 80
Down Parka...................... 275
Winter Tent...................... 350

total .................................2770

[Robatman]

I find digging a square about a foot deep at the entrance of the tent makes it easier to get in, and also to sit in the tent and put your boots on. Also gives you a bit of height from the flame/pot if you need to cook in your vestibule.

Dont forget snow/sand pegs instead of your normal thin ones. Over the years i have found no diff between expensive ones and the red three sided? ones you can get $2 shops.

Robert

EDIT- need to read a little better- these were mentioned above

[ninjapuppet]

Ive never tried this before but heres a method from Hilleberg's website on staking pegs into the snow/ sand.

[Son of a Beach]

does anybody still use the bag-type snow pegs? Ie, little bags that you fill with snow and then bury in the snow? I've not used them myself, but they used to come with some tents (eg, Mac Pac Minaret expedition version).

[Moondog55]

If you normally use a pad in summer; double it, if you use a Thermarest take a closed cell pad with you as well, and a full length wider pad is much better than the standard skinny models. I haven't used a DAM but they look to be the real deal for snow. Drink lots, and lots more but don't drink tea or coffee to close to bedtime, climbing out of a warm sleeping bag to pee is a pain in the cold feet ( or take and use a pee bottle ) if you do use a pee bottle take a separate wide mouth model that cannot be confused for your normal water!! Take slippers or insulated booties or perhaps winter Crocs with the pile liner. Change you sox often as possible but at least once a day, layer your sox, thin wicking pair and thicker insulating pair

Goggles are not a luxury and neither are good specific purpose sunglasses , double up on spare sox, they make good emergency mittens, waterproof over-mittens are needed only once in a blue moon but when you need them you REALLY need them, crampons maybe but an ice axe is always with me.

two hats, a balaclava or Finnish cowl and a beanie that fits over the top of either or both, down parka very nice but not really needed, Polyfill is better in our wet snow conditions ( that said I always carry mine ) I have found that a double bag system, Polyfill & down while heavier by a kilo is warmer when out for an extended time , say 5 days or more. light weight down mummy with the polyester bag over the top.
I always use a bivvysac too, but i use a Megamid so need the ground protection they give. A vest in down can give core protection in bad conditions and is good to sleep in and weighs little
Make a neck sling and keep some water close to your body, say 300ml if you need to melt snow having a little liquid water makes the process much faster

Do not skimp on the food ration, at least 3500 Calories per day and eat a snack last thing as you crawl into bed,

[rucksack]

Ditto to all of moondog55's post. I use a Goretex bivvy sac for all snow trips. Keeps the sleeping bag dry and I throw in anything else that I want to keep dry overnight. Adds a few degrees to the bag too. I'm also very partial to igloos, when the possibility arises. Tents always get wet in Australian snow, especially on longer trips, but if you are xc skiing and have a snow shovel and some kitchen gloves you are ready to go if someone in your party knows how to build an igloo and there is enough decent snow around. You can make them small or large according to inclination and the 'labour resources' at hand. I once helped make one that slept 9, as one of our party was having a birthday during an extended ski tour. It was a full half day effort, of course, but it was worth it and we used it for two nights. With an igloo, you have no wind to worry about and the temperature inside is stable. Just make sure that you always have a nice clear hole at the top of the igloo (an ice axe shaft is particularly useful), that the tunnel floor is lower than the main igloo floor, that you make the inside walls as smooth as possible (no drips during the night) and that you don't block up the tunnel entrance. If the igloo is well made, (and the tunnel is on the 'side', not in the lee of the igloo), you don't need to block the tunnel entrance. With a lower tunnel floor, the cold air will pool there overnight and not where you are sleeping. Carve a few small niches on the inside of the igloo around 40cm or so above the floor for some candles and your lighting problems are solved. A lightweight groundsheet is all you need to keep everything dry. A bivvy sac is a definite plus, of course. If you are cooking inside an igloo, always do it directly under the centre roof hole and check that the hole is clear whilst you are cooking and again before you go to sleep. If it is a cloudless night, the inside of the igloo will be lit by moonlight - magic, no candles or torches needed. I am not so keen on snow caves in Australia, because of our generally wet snow, but after a serious amount of stamping around with xc skis on, you can then then make half decent snow blocks using a snow shovel. Igloos are very social too, so much fun to be had on otherwise dark, cold and snowy winter nights!

rucksack

[ninjapuppet]

Some very awesome tips! I'm gonna print them off and keep them handy

May i ask with the ice axe...........do you ALWAYS carry them? even for the overland/ south coast track in the middle of winter?
Just wondering where I would use them if i wont be climbing straight up a cliff.

and Moondog, you have a very interesting sleeping bag set up. Gonna read up abit more about it.

Just wondering if these snow claws http://evosport.com.au/snowclaw-snow-shovel.html can be used instead of the traditional ice shovels like the black diamond ones. They're only $22 bucks and lightweight as opposed to $150 for other traditional lightweight brands.
I know i certainly dont want to be lugging the old army entrenching tool along!

With them igloos, think i'll need to brush up on some of the old Bear Grylls / survivorman videos first. I imagine i'm abit unco when it comes to these sort of things. dont want the whole thing collapsing on me!

[corvus]

does anybody still use the bag-type snow pegs? Ie, little bags that you fill with snow and then bury in the snow? I've not used them myself, but they used to come with some tents (eg, Mac Pac Minaret expedition version).

You can substitute ziploc bags if you want .
corvus

[rucksack]

ninjapuppet .. no, I have rarely bothered with an ice axe in Australia. Elsewhere, when making an igloo, an ice axe shaft is an ideal implement for that finishing touch, of making a hole at the top, but a conventional tent peg or something similar can also be pressed into action. More effort, of course, and possibly lacking the 'finesse' of plunging an ice axe shaft straight up through the roof of a just completed igloo, but it will do the job.

Nick .. I haven't seen anyone use those bag type 'pegs' for some time. I use 8cm x 8 cm x 2 mm aluminium plates drilled out like a swiss cheese, with a cord looped through one corner. I then loop that cord through the loops on the tent fly, pull tight and stamp the plates into the snow edge up and deep enough to make the fly taught. During the night the snow quickly freezes through the holes and the plates are, for all intents and purposes, immovable. In the morning, a little careful digging releases them. Simple really and they are very easy and cheap to make. I have been using these sorts of snow pegs for years. On the very rare times that I have been caught out in unexpected snow conditions, I have just threaded a stick (or, if I cannot find any, a conventional tent peg) through each of the loops on the fly (as per ninjapuppet's previous post) and then buried them as deep as I can manage. A bit of stamping helps solidify the snow above the now buried stick or peg, (as it does with the aluminium plates too). The buried sticks or pegs are usually fine to hold the tent for the night, even in poor conditions. The aluminium plates are obviously much more efficient though, and certainly a lot easier to manage at the end of a cold, tiring day in the snow. Just loop one through each of the tent fly loops and enthusiastically stamp them end on into the snow until the fly is taught. The cold does the rest, freezing the snow through the holes in the plates and holding them securely.

rucksack

[Moondog55]

ice axe for the high plains around Hotham & Feathertop is a must ( but only used occasionally ) I use deadmen anchors like "rucksack" or dedicated home made snow stakes made from cool-room coving , if you need a snow shovel do not economize; use a real one. if ski touring you can always use the skis as anchors or bury your snow-shoes.

A bigger tent than normal is needed for bad weather above the tree line to alleviate "Cabin Fever" ear plugs help if wind noise stops you from sleeping.
Good housekeeping is really important too.

[walkon]

Some good tips, relevant at this time of year

[sim1oz]

Hi ninjapuppet,

The BD snow shovels are under $100, see the bottom of http://www.bogong.com.au/gear/ski/snow-accessories.html. Having said that, shovels seem to be half the price in the USA so I'm thinking of picking up a Voile while I'm there - Voile seems to get mentioned alot of Backpackinglight

[David M]

Snowclaws were mentioned above. http://www.snowclaw.com/ It only weighs 173 g without the accessory straps. It is a US developed device. Would such a device be suitable for use in Australia where our snow tends to be hard packed whereas in the US it is softer (so I believe)?

[icefest]

Snowclaws were mentioned above. http://www.snowclaw.com/ It only weighs 173 g without the accessory straps. It is a US developed device. Would such a device be suitable for use in Australia where our snow tends to be hard packed whereas in the US it is softer (so I believe)?

If you take an ice axe too...
Half the time theres a layer of ice in aussie snow (and don't forget gardening gloves).

[DarrenM]

Snowclaws were mentioned above. http://www.snowclaw.com/ It only weighs 173 g without the accessory straps. It is a US developed device. Would such a device be suitable for use in Australia where our snow tends to be hard packed whereas in the US it is softer (so I believe)?

A mate of mine tried one for fast and light trips but said he'll stick with the shovel.
The problem is, 50 percent of the time melt freeze makes the snowclaw useless as opposed to a shovel that works 100% of the time.....and you'd want ski gloves over gardening gloves.

[icefest]

and you'd want ski gloves over gardening gloves.

I used to think that too, but after a trip with a mate who swears by them I wouldn't go without.

With Australian snow being as warm as it is it's so close to melting that having your hand up to your elbows in the snow means that most (if not all) ski gloves will get soaked. From melting snow running into the sleeve or from sweat overloading the breathable membrane.

Ski gloves are (at least to me) designed to protect against wind and solid snow. Seam sealing will limit breathability and dexterity and repeated flexing will wear pin pricks into most gloves.
Mitts might work slightly better.

[DarrenM]

If they work, sure why not. As long as you have ski gloves with you.

If you are in the backcountry with ski gloves that get wet, you have *&%$#! ski gloves. There is no excuse for having gloves that aren't waterproof! That's what they are designed for.

[icefest]

If you are in the backcountry with ski gloves that get wet, you have *&%$#! ski gloves. There is no excuse for having gloves that aren't waterproof! That's what they are designed for.

Once you wet out the face fabric they will stop breathing and you will get condensation in any waterproof glove. Keeping a decent dwr on gloves is nigh impossible with the abrasions of normal use (and that's assuming you can get really good seal between your jacket and gloves where no snow will get in).

Ski gloves are designed for skiing and not shovelling and moving snow.

[DarrenM]

As a backup I see no problem.

As for spending days on end digging around in snow....My 5 year old Hestra gloves never wet out and I spend a lot of time doing exactly that. They have drawstrings to stop snow entering etc. Gardening gloves have no insulation and weren't designed for shovelling snow either!

I was concerned that people may have thought that they are a good substitute. If you think ski gloves aren't good for shovelling snow then I beg to differ.

[Smeagle]

just use ya *&%$#! hands little frost bite never hurt anyone