Too many, too far, too hard

[flatfoot]

I was on a club walk today from Perry's Lookdown to Pierces Pass via Blue Gum forest.

Between Blue Gum Forest and the turnoff to Pierces Pass we passed in stages a group of 50 school girls carrying overnight packs. Apparantly they had started from Mt Victoria station which probaly meant a 5am start from Sydney Central. They had walked to the track head above Victoria Falls (which is at least 6km by road).

There was one (or perhaps two) adults supervising towards the front of the group and a pair at the back of the group apparently providing no direct support other than first aid.

It took us about 30 minutes to pass this large group in stages.

One girl in a group of 10 was obviously quite distressed and exhausted. The pack looked too heavy for her. One of our members put out a simple hand of comfort on the shoulder and provided some words of encouragement. The girl burst into tears!

We mentioned to the supervisors at the back of the group that there was a girl in the middle that was obviously quite distressed and needed some attention. They didn't seem too concerned.

They were heading for Acacia Flat which is around 17km from Mt Victoria station. This track is a roller coaster terrain-wise and quite rough with washouts, fallen trees and in some places hard to negotiate side slopes. It is most likely that they are heading out via Govetts and then walking to Blackheath station. This means the second day exceeds 10km. It is also a very hard climb out of Govetts ... particularly with an overnight pack.

One other issue is that this group is way too big! There is no way the one toilet at Acacia Flat will be able to cope. My understanding is that groups are not supposed to be this big. Can anyone confirm?

We were wondering also whether the supervisors check each of the girls packs beforehand ... i.e. that content and weight are appropriate. This is also a very strenuous and long walk for even fit walkers ... let alone mid-teens that have done little in the way of bushwalking.

I think the outdoor education these days is fantastic but is it being done safely?

[corvus]

G'day flatfoot,
Did you think to ask what School they were from.
c

[flatfoot]

G'day flatfoot,
Did you think to ask what School they were from.
c

Our group found out but I thought it best not to post it here. They were from one of the larger Girls schools in Syndey.

[Ent]

Hi

Corvus and I struck something similar in the Cradle Mountain Area earlier in the year. Despite a few emails and letter from other site users that were even more affected the school did not even bother to reply. It was one of the elite Toorak private schools. Post the school name as it sounds like the kids parents need to know what goes on.

Cheers Brett

[Drifting]

No, outdoor ed is not being done safely at all. It is just a matter of time before something bad happens.

[ninjapuppet]

Hi Flatfoot!

I also planned a blue gum walk all week, sheduled for today. Might have come accross paths with your group and the schoolgirls, but a big Friday night out meant the alarm clock didnt work this morning so i ended up going to Royal NP isntead (only 20 minutes away)

Most of those teenage girls are going to be pretty distressed tomorrow morning when its toilet time. I imagine they wouldnt enjoy digging holes or going bush during an age when most teenagers are so self concious. This is especially when theres another 50 people in close proximity!
shame on the organisers

[tasadam]

...We mentioned to the supervisors at the back of the group that there was a girl in the middle that was obviously quite distressed and needed some attention. They didn't seem too concerned.

This is the biggest concern. There's an element of neglect there.

As you are only quoting your own observations, I see no harm in naming the school either. I wonder what a phone call to the principal would do, and if the result is unsatisfactory, make them aware of this topic (and similar topics) on the forum.

[nakedape]

Hi all,

While it would drive me to near insanity to come across such a large school group - and one that seems to be poorly lead - let's not tar all schools with the same brush. Some outdoor ed is being run well and in small groups that are considerate of other walkers. E.g. we ran into a group from Salisbury High in the MT Remarkable NP recently who were being lead by an obviously experienced walker/ teacher. They were only too keen to ensure that the group did not camp near us & that all students respected bushwalking values.

I've named a School doing the right thing - its only fair to name those that are not!

nakedape

[flatfoot]

I'm planning to contact the P & C association of the particular school and advise them of my concern.

I also spoke to NPWS this afternoon. There is no specific restriction on group size for Acacia Flat. There are two toilets at acacia flat (I thought there was only one). They were changed / serviced about a month or so back. There is a general guideline that large groups should be broken into smaller groups on track to aid passing (they were spread out in smaller groups on the track). The ranger was not aware that there was a group of this size going through. He said that they prefer that leaders of groups of this size make them aware of their plans. It will be a traffic jam going up Govetts.

[north-north-west]

I've passed groups from Timbertop half a dozen times. Always well organised, polite, careful and properly managed. Of course, the area is virtually their backyard, so it's not too surprising, but still good to see.

On the other hand, I once passed a mob up in the Jagungal wilderness, where one little tart had off-loaded her pack on a poor smitten fellow student - who was labouring along under the combined weight of both his pack and hers - and was blithely wandering along chatting up the best looking boy in the bunch. D of E group, I think, and no adults in sight.

[Phil Box]

I am an outdoor eddy. In my considered opinion that is far too large a group to manage. It should have been split at the very least into two groups of 25. There should then be one teacher and one experienced and qualified outdoor ed leader. A group being asked to walk into difficult terrain should also have undergone prior training and would then be able to manage itself with the outdoor ed leader and teacher merely following. At the very minimum the outdoor ed leader should have assessed pack sizes, weights and have fitted each individual with their pack. Observation of how a group is travelling is key. Walking a short distance and then performing an assessment is usual. You just can't do that with an extremely large group. Not only that but this is just poor form to put that many people out there where others are needing to move over tracks that can be quite narrow.

We of course are outside l;ooking in and are not privy to the whole story. It may be that two groups from the same school have joined together for a short distance and may in fact be going their seperate ways. Not trying to make excuses though. Still not cool. Outdoor eddys have to perform with what they are given, they are at the mercy of companies who provide services to schools. The school is definitely not getting a quality product with those ratios.

It would be best practice to have a ratio of ten participants to one outdoor eddy and one teacher. The teacher is merely along for the ride to provide the legal framework covering the students. Being seperated by one full rotation would also be best. A rotation being half a day usually.

The School should definitely be informed as to what was observed. They may not respond but would definitely apreciate feedback. The feedback should be positive and in a manner that is respectful. That way a response would be highly likely.

[kanangra]

That is a fair way with full packs for inexperienced teenagers. I wonder how many will be put off bushwalking/ camping / and the outdoors in general perhaps for life by this experience?

k.

[Phil Box]

Exactly, an outdoor eddy needs to have each individuals physical as well as mental state in mind. I hate the sausage factory mentality of some outdoor ed institutions. Mind you every institution has to make a profit otherwise it cannot operate long term. That said if you are damaging kids you won't be there in the short term. It is a balance. One has to give a sufficiently tough challenge otherwise we should simply take them shopping at Myers. In every activity it is challenge by choice but if a participant refuses to take on the challenge then that can leave them looking pretty silly in the eyes of their peers. If they rise to the challenge and cannot cope with the challenge then support is given and the whole group ends up cheering them on even if they have failed.

It is better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all. There are some of the "cool" kids who prefer to sit out an activity than to look like they failed in front of the group. I find that they have actually shot themselves in the foot because the group ends up viewing them with disdain for not having had a go.

It's such a balancing act shepherding young people along who are out of their comfort zone. If we push too hard that is wrong, if we don't offer a sufficiently high enough challenge then that is also wrong. There are of course within a group an awful lot of differing capabilities to be concerned about.

[flatfoot]

A quick update. I emailed the Duke of Ed organisation since I was unsure how many schools were involved. They have subsequently contacted the school involved. I hope that in this way both Duke of Ed and the school concerned can take steps to improve the way these activities are conducted.

[flyfisher]

Well done ffoot, keep us posted please.
ff